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Felt recoil and slower buring powders?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by slide action, Mar 3, 2008.

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  1. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    I know some opinions may vary, but what powders do you feel lessen felt recoil? I have used Green Dot in the past(a mid range powder) and years ago I went with PB for awhile. I have also used a slower burning IMR powder(can't remember the number).IYO What powders do some of you think takes a little edge of of felt recoil? Just curious.
     
  2. ec90t

    ec90t Guest

    Slide Action,

    I've allways felt that Hodgdon's Titegroup was a very soft shooting powder. It is a very dense powder and takes very little of it to make things happen.

    ec90t
     
  3. les morgan

    les morgan TS Member

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    You might have used IMR 7625. To my shoulder it is the softest shooting of all the powders I have tried. However it can leave some unburned grains in the barrel especially in autoloaders, is very fine and can leak out around your powder measure, and is expensive. Otherwise it is great. Many will argue otherwise, but I perceive the slower powders as more pleasent to shoot. To me the recoil seems like a slow shove instead of a sharp hit. I have pretty much settled on SOLO 1000. It is clean burning and a little slower than the fast powders. For the slowest recoil probably IMR 7625 is the best, but the PB and Green Dot you mentioned are pretty nice but not as clean as SOLO 1000...Les
     
  4. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Despite what a slide rule or calculator might show, FELT RECOIL is what your shoulder feels at the end of the day.

    The softest powder for 1250 foot 1 1/8 oz HCP loads I have shot is Solo 1250. However, it takes a BUNCH to work. ($$$$)

    I have used Solo 1000 since it was introduced. It is my all time favorite. Rex I is also a soft shooting powder.
     
  5. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    I've never "felt" that much difference from the powders, but I do feel a difference from 1150fps to 1250fps. I also feel a bit more "effect" from a louder muzzle blast using certain powders. I don't think I can "perceive" the difference a millisecond or two might make. More powder of a slower burning rate adds to the ejecta, which adds to the recoil energy. Whether or not it can be "felt" is another thing entirely.

    One shooter will perceive it differently than another. I'm not that sensitive to recoil, so it's lost on me.
     
  6. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Quack Shot- I totally agree with you. The difference in time to reach peak pressure between a slow and a fast powder ranges around 3-5 ten thousands of a second. I realize that the other posters above believe they can tell the difference in two recoil curves that differ only by 2/10,000 of a second, but I have great difficulty accepting their conclusions.

    Adding or subtracting one #8 shot to a shell will have much more affect on both total and felt recoil than a fast v. slow powder and not every shell in a box has the same number of shot in them. Try shooting a box of factory shells and sorting the cases from heaviest to lightest recoil with any accuracy.

    Pat Ireland
     
  7. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    People kept telling me how soft-shooting a powder Green Dot was. I bought a pound and loaded some average speed 16-yard loads with it and blind tested them agains my own Clay Dot loads. I could tell no difference at all except for the residue the Green Dot left in the barrel.

    Morgan
     
  8. WV Bob

    WV Bob TS Member

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    I'm with those who say they can't feel the difference in one powder or the other. 1150 is 1150 and 1300 is 1300fps. I can feel that difference. I like Clays because it's clean.
     
  9. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    It doesn't make much sense to me either - this "soft shooting powder" mantra.

    I load 1 oz at 1150 fps with either Promo or Clays if I want a soft load.

    But if you believe that powder X is a soft shooting powder, then no "proof" is necessary.

    Faith is a wonderful thing as it requires no evidence to support a belief.

    I like the blind test idea, but that is too scientific for a normal trapshooter.

    Don
     
  10. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I'll join the group that thinks there is a noticeable difference. I've used PB for a long time along with some Green Dot and International Clays when PB was not available. A couple of years ago, I came across a flat of shells loaded many years prior with Clays and decided to shoot them up. Same hull, same wad, same primer, same shot charge, same approximate velocity but not the same recoil sensation. I have no doubt the actual total impact on my shoulder was the same with both powders - physics dictates that it should be - but the Clays loads really had a sharper "hit" than what I was used to.

    Ed
     
  11. pendennis

    pendennis Well-Known Member

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    Recoil is the reaction to accelerating a mass of lead shot and a plastic wad (1.125, 1.0, .875 oz.), to a given speed of feet/second. Powder is only the catalyst in the process, and is mostly consumed before the charge leaves the barrel. The weight of the gun; whether fixed breech, pump, or semi-auto; design of the stock; and recoil pad or system; all have an effect on "felt" recoil, and "felt" recoil is not the same as actual recoil.

    Whether a slow-, or fast-burning powder, is of no consequence.

    These discussions on powder are akin to inquiries as to the number of angels on the head of a pin, interesting, but irrelevant as to recoil.

    Best,
    Dennis
     
  12. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    Les, I found my reloading notes and it was indeed IMR 7625. I too felt it was much easier on the sholder. While there is always an equal and opposite reaction, I do believe there is a "curve" that spreads out the recoil somewhat with the slower powders. Remember I am talking about perceived "FELT" recoil. I'm with Average ED on the Clays. I know I have loaded Clays at the same velocity as an equal load of slower powder and can indeed FEEL a MUCH sharper punch from the loads with Clays in them. Clay Dot seemed to me a VERY hard recoiling powder and I only bought one keg of it for that reason. Likewise I think some hulls can make a difference. I used to load federal papers a lot. I chronied some loads of Red Dot in the papers and an equal load in plastic. Both loads clocked in the 1200 FPS range, but the papers were MUCH more pleasnat to shoot than the plastic loads, even though it took more powder to equal the same velocity in the paper hulls.
     
  13. Andy44

    Andy44 Active Member

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    I have used A LOT of Nitro 100, Green Dot, Promo, Titewad, WSF, and others more as an 'inquisitive hobby', but I can truly feel a difference between some loads. Recently, I tried some loads using 20gr of WSH under DR XXL wads with Cheddite primers pushing 1 oz of shot. This has to be the softest recoiling, hardest hitting 1 oz load I have ever tried! Several of my shooting buddies have also tried these and couldn't believe the results. WSH is quite dense and only requires a MEC 20 or 21 bushing! This is why you can get away with using 7/8 oz wads. Haven't tried patterning these yet, but I already know the real results on clays!
    AndyH
     
  14. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    slide action, I am also in the yes there is a difference camp. I know the physics. I know it takes more of a slow burning powder to reach the same velocity, all else being equal, so the slow powder load has to have more actual recoil.

    I know that, and still I say the actual and perceived recoil are two entirely different things. 700X has fast, sharp recoil. Clays, Clay Dot, e3 and the like are a touch slower and softer, but not very much. Red Dot is a touch softer than them. Solo 1000 and Int Clays are next. Solo 1000 should feel softer than it does, but I used the last of mine before I had a chrono, so I can't say for sure.

    When you get to American Select you start to feel a noticeable difference. Green Dot is softer yet, and PB is softer yet.

    Now for all you nay sayers, try this in a 6.4 pound field gun. Shoot 7/8oz loads at 1350 to 1400 fps using Int Clays, a moderately fast powder. The shoot 1 1/4oz @ 1220fps using Solo 1250. The 7/8oz load generates 19ft/lbs of recoil and the 1 1/4oz load generates 29ft/lbs. Think you can tell the difference? You certainly can. I'd rather shoot the 1 1/4oz load. It shoves my shoulder way back in what feels like a slow motion push. It doesn't hurt a bit. The 7/8oz load just whacks it. So the heavier load feels softer because it delivers the recoil over a longer time period (and it doesn't hurt), even though it is delivering 10 additional foot-pounds of energy.
     
  15. k-gunguy

    k-gunguy Member

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    I noticed that no one mentioned the wads that they used. I have found noticble differences with the same powder different wads. I use RED DOT for all my 16s,great scores but amazing feel between fig8s and waa12s,same load. Tried drs,and can still feel a difference. By the way only 1/18 loads.
    GAZ
     
  16. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    I'm glad I don't have the sensitivity to loads that some of you have described. I can feel a difference, but only if there is a substantial difference in velocity or shot weight. I tried a blind test on myself and found that I couldn't tell the difference between powders. I could usually tell a difference of over 50 fps, but that was about it. I went from slow to fast powders of all kinds. I did notice a difference in muzzle blasts on a few powders. Some of the slower stuff was louder, adding to any unpleasant sensation you get when the gun goes off. With proper hearing protection, that's not an issue either. I shoot a gaspipe and don't notice the movement of the action either.

    Quite frankly, if you are paying so much attention on the "felt" recoil and not the target, you might do better to ignore the recoil and concentrate on breaking the bird. Recoil? What's that? All I noticed was smoke where the target once was! If your gun fits and you are shooting target loads, that's the way it should be. See the bird, shoot the bird.

    Pat Ireland,

    I'm with you on this one. If I could notice the difference a millisecond makes, I'd need to cut WAY back on the caffeine!
     
  17. Paladin

    Paladin Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone ever, ever heard the following at a trap club; 'I am going to use faster burning powder because it shoots softer'? Anyone?? I doubt if that statement has ever been said. There is a difference in the pressure curve,,that has been measured. What that means is that the rate of acceleration is different,,that can not be escaped. Some can feel the difference and some can't.
     
  18. bullshooter859

    bullshooter859 TS Member

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    I've been shooting 1 1/8oz.of shot 22.5grs of unique about 7800psi very low pressure, 18grs red dot 10,000psi both are 1200 fps red dot just gets there faster more pressure, more kick, both my girls grew up with the unique with no problem. heaver gun less kick, semi-auto less kick. happy shooting, J.D.Loftin
     
  19. Fritzboy

    Fritzboy TS Member

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    1200fps is 1200fps. Red dot just feels faster. It's all the same out of the barrel
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    While there are several posters above who can tell the difference between fast and slow powders by recoil, in the strictest sense this - making the correct determination at a statistically significant level - is only true for certain if they have demonstrated the ability to do so. That means telling one powder from another when they don't know which they are shooting.

    We've all read about shot accelerations, "push vs shove," sharp vs smooth and so on, all in articles asserting that slower powders have extended pressure curves. But have any of these articles _shown_ you what they mean? By publishing real pressure curves? Certainly, hand-drawn ones exist and they support the claims being made, but why don't the authors just illustrate with real data? I think it's because if the readers saw the data they wouldn't put much stock in the story. Or maybe the authors just don't have any real curves, in which case they are simply making the relationship (felt-recoil and pressure time-course) up.

    The pressure curves are in fact very similar, as are the time-courses. Red Dot and Green Dot, which many "can tell" are different, aren't, not to any reasonabe degree, anyway.

    [​IMG]

    And even Red Dot and PB, well separated on the powder-burning-speed scale, peak only 3/10,000 second apart.

    [​IMG]

    Add to this considerable similarity the fact that when those peaks occur the gun has moved less than 1/100 inch and you see the problem.

    If the slow-power theory is to be proven correct then tests where the shot speed are known to be the same (not just from the reloading guide) will need to be done and published. The problem then will be to separate-out all the other clues of differences, sound for sure and vibration, maybe. I doubt that can be done.

    Neil
     
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