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faster lock time = to shooting behind target

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Beancounter, Jul 24, 2007.

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  1. Beancounter

    Beancounter TS Member

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    No - absolutely not. Hammer fall is measured in fractions of a fraction of a second. On this forum, many posters seem to believe that trigger pull, lock time, hammer fall etc describe the total time from when you thought it was time to shoot till the gun went bang. But even with that flawed logic, there is not enough time difference. If you are used to a POS that you can pull up the slack on and change for a good gun with a good trigger, that gun might go off before you get to the target. But the problem is not lock time or hammer fall.
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    It depends on how you are getting in front of the target. (Don't miss the disclaimer at the end.)

    If you go to a spot and shoot, you will shoot ahead of the target.

    If you shoot sustained lead, more or less, with the gun moving at shot-release about the same as the target, there is no difference.

    If you come from behind, with the gun moving faster than target and this is what most do, I'd say, you will shoot behind it.

    Disclaimer: The various delays in the nervous system are many times the differences in locktime and so all of the above is meaningless, though accurate, calculation-wise.

    Neil
     
  3. Charles L. Schmidt

    Charles L. Schmidt TS Member

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    If you change from a gun with a slow lock-time (Model 12, 870, etc.) to a gun with a very fast lock-time (Silver Seitz, Bowen, Ljutic, etc.), there will most certainly be a difference in the sight picture required to center the target. While the lock-time (the time it takes for the primer to be struck once the hammer has been released) is indeed measured in milliseconds, it makes a very noticeable difference. cls
     
  4. wwqc21

    wwqc21 TS Member

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    Charles Schmidt, you are absolutly correct. I shoot a Silver Seitz as my main gun, but have Perazzi,and both K-guns for doubles and what ever, but the way
    to prove what you say, is to shoot a Ljutic Space Gun, and then a Silver Seitz.
    These are the slowest and fastest lock-times guns I know of. If you try this
    you will know what Mr. Schmidt is talking about. Hope to see all at the Grand.
    Good shooting to all! Wayne Quandt
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    You would, Skip, just as you correctly point out, when you first switched. But that wasn't pofd's question. He did not ask what happens when you switch, but rather, what is the effect of locktime on lead.

    The question, as I read it, is whether a fast lock time needs less lead. That was the context in which I answered the question.

    I love the post, by the way, pofd. It's never asked in that way and it's the way that counts.

    How many times have we heard that if you move to a faster locktime you need a higher POI? The geometric rules must be the same, but so many will say "When I went from a (slow) to a (fast) I needed a higher POI," ignoring the fact that the angle difference required is twice, at the extremes (20 degrees,) what is required vertically, 10 degrees at max and very likely way less than that. And because of the rules of trig, it's way more than that anyway.

    Remember the "yeti & penguin" game (do a search) and see that this is all nonsense anyway. What we see as pulling the trigger is just an illusion, we, mentally, "pulled the trigger" long before the gun went off and what we think we see is just the amazing ability of our minds to make sense of an equivocal situation. What our eyes saw endured a delay of about 1/4 second before the command to pull the trigger was issued, maybe less if it didn't have to go to the cortex but not much, since speed of neural transmission is pretty much fixed and every synapse and inch or nerve travel takes time, as does the resolution of a visual image and so forth.

    The gun goes off and acts as a strobe fixing our understanding of lead. But all the action was, in terms of locktime (3 milliseconds, twice or half that) long, long ago.

    Neil
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Piddie, I'll do better than show you, I'll tell you how to figure it out for yourself!

    Assume we shoot .22's, not shotguns, and you have a .22 side-by side, the left barrel with a fast locktime, the right with a slow. The switch to a .22 from a shotgun is to refine your thinking, that is, only one lead will work, within a range of about four inches which, in shotgun circles, is nothing.

    Take some paper and some time and you will figure. Start with sustained lead where, you will see, one lead will work for one barrel, one for another, The faster locktime will need less lead. How much?

    This is why we are using a .22. We can calculate exactly what we need. Assume the big angle, maybe 30 degrees as a hard right from post five.

    The speed of the target is 30 MPH, 44 ft./sec. From the 27, it will take the shot about 0.14 seconds to reach the target. The sin of 30 being 0.5, we'll call the hoirzontal speed of the target half of 44 ft/sec, call it, for ease of computation, 25 ft/sec.

    Now let's look at some lock times and call 0.003 sec about what a Perazzi is. The fast ones are half that, the slow ones more than twice that, but that's the range we are talking about.

    How far does a target going 25 ft/sec travel in 0.003 sec? Multiply it out and get 0.9 inches. Halve the locktime and reduce that to less than half an inch, but even the .22 doesn't know the difference since it will break with if it's centered, and the same goes for making the locktime twice or four times as much. This is why sustained lead is not dependent on locktime. No matter what the specification of the gun is, about the right lead will break the target every time, even if you are shooting a .22.

    But now, piddie, since your are interested, use that format to examine the spot-shooting vs come-from-behind techniques and see what they lead to.

    Post your findings here if you like.

    Neil

    (an edit: Doubts about my calculations got me up at 5 this morning but they still look OK. The lead you need, in the above example is about three and a half feet, but the difference due to locktimes is -let's say - an inch.
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    ...but the locktimes of Ljutics are little different from most of the others. BK80.

    Locktime is a function of

    1. The spring force accelerating the hammer

    2. The (effective) mass of the hammer

    3. The distance of hammer fall.

    Since Ljutics are no better than mid-range for all of these, so is their locktime no different from mid-range.

    And besides, look at the .22 example I posted above. How much difference can there be in lead over a locktime range of maybe 0.005 seconds, max? (That is no more than a couple/3 inches on the right from 5. This is "shooting behind?")

    That does not mean did not see what they reported, however. Trigger movement surely has an effect, as does pull-weight. They could all have lead to shooting behind,; it's just that locktime is an unlikely suspect compared to the others.

    Neil
     
  8. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    brownk80 - Is it possible that Nadine was trying to sell guns with a little exaggeration rather than to accurately measure the effect of lock time. Dennis D. does have the only system I am aware of that will accurately measure lock time. It was very expensive.

    A good crisp trigger is a major factor when shooting trap. Lock time is at best a very minor factor.

    Pat Ireland
     
  9. GunDr

    GunDr Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Pat, lock time has a very little part to play in the actual shooting process.

    What good, or bad, is lock time, if the shooter's reaction time is not consistant. Does a quicker lock time get you behind the target, if the trigger pull weight is heavy or the trigger pull is "mushy"? How about if the shooter is a flincher?

    A good trigger pull will give any shooter the perception of a faster lock time. Using Neil's calculations, how many shooters can actually see 2-3 inches at the distance they will break a target. Heck, their front bead will take up that much space.
     
  10. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    say what you want.... In the method that I use to shoot a Seitz gun will shoot the back half of the target on a hard right every time and my sx-1's, model 12, or an 870 give me an ink ball. I do not own a Seitz so my testing is very limited but leaves me no doubt that at first( If I bought a Silver Seitz) I would shoot the backs off the targets until I got used to the site picture required for an ink ball. Jeff
     
  11. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    Lock time is a big variable. There are other factors to consider, swing speed to the target, and POI are all inner related to trigger lock time. Your mind can adapt to any lock time what it cannot handel is a trigger that varies in speed from shot to shot. I have checked many guns and some of them have a varing lock time that is associated with the position of the cocking rod and the position of the firing pin if both items are free floating. One gun I checked had a lock time difference of 6 milliseconds depending on the position of the cocking rod. Can you perceive the difference of one gun to another on lock time, yes I can for the first couple shots then the mind adapts and your off to a different mode. Just for an example when I tested serveral different guns for lock time here are some of the results, Ljutic 3 to 3.5 milliseconds, Perazzi 3 milliseconds, Seitz 2 millisecinds, Remingtom 3200 2 milliseconds, Older Alferman 3.5 milliseconds. Winchester Model 12 7 Milliseconds, Kreighoff K-80 2.5 to 3 milliseconds, the new Infinity .5 of a millisecond. This is all the data that I have for now. The machine that I used is in need of an update as it is not compatable with the new windows operating systems. Just more worthless data. Shoot well and shoot often, next time out take a freind the sport needs new members.

    Dennis DeVault
     
  12. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    If lock time is insignificant, I need a new reason why the Browning Recoilless drove me nuts!

    HM
     
  13. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    It's a proven fact that shooters can adjust to about any type of trigger/sear combination, even a flint lock shotgun on moving targets. Which is easier to accomplish is the question that should be asked in my opinion. Trap, according to our top shooters is a game of inches for precise points for them, I would think it's also important for the rest of us too?

    "And besides, look at the .22 example I posted above. How much difference can there be in lead over a locktime range of maybe 0.005 seconds, max? (That is no more than a couple/3 inches on the right from 5. This is "shooting behind?")"

    That "couple/3 inches", coupled with the pointing error most of us have, yes, I say it's important to have all the advantages possible in a game of inches. I feel that's the primary reason precision rifle shooters want their rifle to go off when their eyes tell them the alignment is right on. Why would we not want the same precision as trap shooters? I certainly do. Hap
     
  14. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Only if you use 7-1/2's instead of 8's.
     
  15. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

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    The fastest lock time shotgun ever has to be the French made Rhouby with electric ignition ammo. If fast lock time is good, why didn't anyone want them?

    I was offered a like new Rhouby last year for $600. Nicely made gun, but good for nothing but wall-hanging....but it did come with the last 20 remaining rounds of ammo.
     
  16. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    You guys are nuts. Just shoot ahead of the target.
     
  17. hubcap

    hubcap TS Member

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    I'm glad somebody else is worrying about this issue. I have other things to keep me occupied in my attempts to improve my shooting.

    By the way Neil - thank you for the very informative response.

    hubcap
     
  18. Harold

    Harold TS Member

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    Neil, I have one minor nitpick. The lead you calculated, which you said was for sustained lead, was actually for spot shooting, where the gun is held still. Sustained lead is what skeet shooters use, where the swing speed maintains a fixed distance ahead of the target. If the shooter really does manage a sustained lead, the lock time error is truly zero, not just a very small number, because the lead will be exactly the same no matter when the gun goes off.

    In a swing-through type of lead, if the swing speed is twice the target speed, the lock time error will be equal, but in the opposite direction to the spot shooting lead. With spot shooting the gun with slower lock time is 0.9 inches further behind the target. With swing through, the slower lock time would be 0.9 inches ahead of the target compared to the fast lock time. Faster swing through speeds would result in greater difference.
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Yes, Harold, you are right. My 0.9 inch lead change was for spot shooting, not sustained lead. That's why I edited it at 5 AM - I knew something was wrong and rechecked the math but not the idea. And here I now am at 4 am for the same reason. It was clear that the symmetry you outline required that sustained lead was indifferent to locktime and that's what I wrote at 8 PM but at 11 I couldn't make it work. Thanks for the correction; it bothered me the whole drive to Iowa and finally it's been fixed.

    Dennis Devault figures are appreciated since they confirm the general range of the figures used and confirm us how much we should worry about locktime.

    Neil
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil - Dennis showed that my K-80 has a lock time about 0.5 of one thousands of a second faster than some other fine guns. This could be very important. It means that I have slightly less time to lift my head and miss a target. I can assure you that I have the fast head lift trick mastered.

    Pat Ireland
     
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