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Faster loads shoot flatter than slower loads?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by rodbuster, Apr 11, 2009.

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  1. rodbuster

    rodbuster TS Member

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    I was told that faster loads shoot flatter (lower), than slower loads. If this is correct, why would that be?

    Thank you in advance, Rodbuster.
     
  2. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Rodbuster, that's not entirely fact. A fast load, one over 1300 FPS spreads faster than a slow 1100 FPS load does and gives one the impression it shoots lower. They both shoot to the same POI if measured to the pattern centers. Try it at 16 yards on paper and measure it for yourself?

    Hap
     
  3. Country Squire

    Country Squire TS Member

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    rodbuster, The reason is that the gun barrel is moving in an upward arc and the faster shell is out when the barrel is in a lower position there-fore making it impact lower.hope this helps George
     
  4. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    What George said...

    You can really see this with 357 magnum pistols and points of impact with full bore 357 magnum loads and light 38 target loads shot from the same pistol.

    As recoil occurs the barrel will rise. The faster the round the sooner it exits the barrel and the less rise there will be - this will impact where the bullet strikes.
     
  5. ink ball

    ink ball Member

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    The reason that a faster load drops less than a slower load is very simple. Time and Gravity. Gravity works independently of the forward velocity of the projectile. An object will fall in accordance with the acceleration due to gravity whether is has forward velocity or if it it is simply dropped vertically. However, shooting at a target at a fixed distance, a fast load gets to the target quicker than a slower load, therefore gravity has less time to act on the shot charge of the faster load, and therefore will shoot flatter than the slower velocity load. This can be an important consideration for long distance rifle shooting, however for shotgunning distances it is of no consequence. The difference will be fractions of an inch. So yes, from a theoretical and absolute viewpoint, faster loads will drop less. From a practial standpoint, the difference between a "fast" and a "slow" velocity load will be negligible.

    Edit

    OK...I crunched the numbers...Comparing drop distance of the shot charge of a load of 7.5's that started out at 1330 fps vs a load of 7.5's that started out at 1135 fps. At 40 yds, the faster load will drop 0.81 inches less than the slower load....
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    HSLDS, I have a question since I'm not into much handgunning at all.

    If both loads you mentioned were shot with the handgun clamped securely (no upward movement) in a heavy vice, would that same thing still happen?

    George, if that's true on an upward 'arc' move, how would it work when sandbagging the gun/shots from a stationary bench? How much difference can there be between a load exiting at 800 MPH versus another at 750? POI and pattern wise? I do agree that there's some differences in numbers but how much difference does it really make at 40 yards?

    Hap
     
  7. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    FWIW, experience I've had shooting handguns is; heavier bullets shoot higher, lighter bullets shoot lower.......and velocity makes little difference.

    John C. Saubak
     
  8. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    Hap,

    Gravity not with standing, if the gun is held immobile then the point of impact should be the same for both rounds.

    For John Saubak,

    Yes, heavier bullets will tend to shoot higher - but for the same reason.

    If you use the same weight bullet - one loaded to high velocity (357 mag 'full house'), and one to low velocity (38 target load) you should see the same type of difference in point of impact as well.

    This assumes the pistol is allowed to move with recoil and it is easier to see in a 6" or 8" barrel as compared to a 2" barrel (different transit times).
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    ink ball explained it well. Objects fall at 32 ft/sec/sec excluding air resistance. Faster loads are in the air less time than slower loads.

    The more seconds the thing is in the air, the further it will fall.

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    If you take 2 rifles and fire them at the same time off a level rest on level ground at 3 feet above the ground level, 1 rifle shoots a round at 1,000 FPS the other rifle shoots a round at 4,000 FPS both bullets hit the ground at the same time.
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Like TOOLMAKER 251 said, drop 1-1/8 ounce of shot at the same time as a 1500 FPS is fired on the level, both hit the earth at the same time. The 1500 just spreads out more. Accordin to Fig Newton? Hap
     
  12. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    I loved Newton's when I was a kid.
     
  13. wireguy

    wireguy TS Member

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    When I touch off one of my secret "powder bushings are for sissies" pot shooting loads there is no drop. Time stops, the earth momentarily ceases turning on it's axis, the sun dims, and gravity has no effect. I can ink ball clay pigeons at 1/2 mile. Really.
     
  14. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    rodbuster, are you thoroughly confused now? Inkball, Pat, Tool and Hap state a perfectly valid scientific fact, but it is not germane.

    Country Squire gave you the correct answer for a shoulder fired shotgun.

    HSLDS give correct info for a handgun fired when hand held (sand bag rest or not). You can easily prove this to yourself. Using the same bullet weights, fire a .357 Magnum cartridge at a target. Now fire a .38 Special, then a .38 Long Colt. The .357 will be lowest, then the .38 Special and then the Long Colt. You will see a surprising difference in POI from just 20'.
     
  15. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    You might be making the same mistake many hunters make when shooting at an angle to "parallel" to the ground.

    Remember vectors from physics??

    If you fire a rifle at 3000 fps, or a shotgun at 1250 fps horizontally then gravity imparts a downward acceleration of 32f/s/s.

    If you fire at an angle to the horizon (up or down - it doesn't matter) a significant portion of that velocity is available to counter or overcome the effects of gravity (easiest to see as vectors - the angle can be defined by the sum of the two vectors - a large horizontal one, and a significant vertical one), the net effect is that you can essentially IGNORE the acceleration due to gravity.

    The final result in this situation is that the bullet will strike higher than your aiming point because the velocity of the bullet counters the effect of gravity.

    I know, it is counter intuitive, but it is true...
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    HSLDS, that works for uphill, but since the same hold true for downhill and your explanation would lead to a double effect it seems to me, I can't see that what you say can be behind it.

    Neil
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    HSLDS, when a bullet leaves the confines of the barrel wall, does it in fact rise or begin it's fall immediately? neither angle of the projectile nor speed can overcome or ignore gravity, can it?

    Shooting up or down a steep incline on a long shot is very confusing to a lot of shooters. The distance they see in yards isn't in sync with the actual distance if both the target and rifle were on the same elevation plane, gravitational wise. Stand on a cliff and shoot your shot pattern into a still lake, it may be a hundred yards to the water from where you stand but only 25 yards out gravity wise. The pattern at 100 yards away will look and be the same size as it would at 25 yards on the level. 25 yards is the actual distance the target is away from the barrel for gravity's sake.

    Hap
     
  18. ink ball

    ink ball Member

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    HSLDS,

    The reason that a bullet will strike higher when you are shooting at a signficant upward or downward angle is because the only vector component that has anything to do with bullet drop is the horizonal component. If you are shooting a 400 yd shot, but it is at a 45 degree angle, the true balistic distance will only be 283 yds (cos 45 * 400 = 283). Velocity of a projectile has no affect on the actions of gravity upon that projectile.
     
  19. Savage99Stan

    Savage99Stan Active Member

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    Years back we had a customer who had bought a Remington replica single action revolver in 45 Colt (sometimes erroneously referred to as "long Colt"). With the 255 grain factory load it shot about 12" high. He wanted it to shoot to the sights at 25 yards and didn't want the sights altered. I tried 230, 225, 200, 185 grain bullets and they progressively shot lower but it wasn't until I tried a hollow based semiwadcutter of 155 grains that it shot to point of aim at 25 yards.

    Recoil time in the barrel is the most common cause of the heavier bullets hitting higher. Heavier bullets take longer to exit than lighter ones and thus exit at a higher point of rise.

    Of course, in response to the writer who asked what would happen if the gun were solidly anchored and could not move, I don't know. Haven't tried it, but I'd bet they'd shoot closer together than if it were free to move. Varying velocity with the same bullet will also alter point of aim.

    There ain't no finite laws in this matter. Your results may vary.
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Why would a heavier bullet take more time in the barrel? Aren't there fast ones and slow ones, Stan?

    Neil
     
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