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Failure to Fire

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by School Teacher, Sep 14, 2010.

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  1. School Teacher

    School Teacher Well-Known Member

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    During a registered shoot, is a shooter allowed two failure to fire (s) regardless of reason. Did not a shooter who turned down a legal bird after being in the firing position have to produce a shell with a dented primer or claim some type of gun malfunction in order escape being assessed a lost target?

    As I understand the current rule, I am allowed two failure to fire (s) for whatever reason I call for a target and fail to shoot. Is this correct?

    Ed Ward
     
  2. V10

    V10 Well-Known Member

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    Section VII, D:


    "D. FAILURE TO FIRE
    The following procedure shall be followed in all tournaments:
    1. A contestant shall be allowed two (2) failures to fire in Singles and
    Handicap events, for any reason other than stated in Paragraph C.,2.
    above, during each sub-event regardless of the length of the sub-event.
    When the first or second allowable Failure to Fire in any sub-event
    occurs, the contestant shall be allowed to call for and fire at another
    target, and the result of the shot will be scored in accordance with
    these Official Rules. During shoot-offs for All Around and High Over All
    events shooters will be allowed 1 Failure to Fire in each of the three (3)
    disciplines (Singles, Handicap, Doubles).

    2. A contestant shall be allowed 2 failures to fire, for any reason other
    than stated in Paragraph C., 2., above, during each Doubles sub-event
    if the Failure to Fire occurs when the contestant attempts to shoot the
    first target of a Doubles pair, or when the contestant attempts to shoot
    the second target of a Doubles pair after the first target has been fired at
    and broken and would have been scored “DEAD”. When the first target
    of a Doubles pair is fired at and missed and that target would be scored
    “LOST”, there shall be no allowable Failure to Fire at the second target.
    (See exception in VII., E., 11., f.) When a pair is ruled lost there shall be
    no “Failure to Fire” charged. When the first or second allowable Failure
    to Fire occurs in any Doubles sub-event, the contestant shall be allowed
    to call for and fire at another pair of targets and the result of the shots at
    the new pair will be scored in accordance with these Official Rules.

    3. Machine-gunning or doubling only occurs in doubles events where
    two shots are fired with a single operation of the trigger, rendering
    the competitor incapable of firing at the second target because both
    shot shells have fired. When a defective gun malfunctions, doubles or
    machine guns whether or not the first target would have been scored
    “dead” or “lost” and whether or not either target is legal or illegal, the
    referee/scorer shall rule this occurrence a “failure to fire” and score
    accordingly.

    4. Whenever an allowable Failure to Fire as provided in this Rule occurs,
    the referee/scorer shall mark a large legible F1 on the score sheet in the
    space where that target is scored along with the score for that target, and
    also place the same mark beside the total sub-event score. After F1 and
    F2 is in the place where individual targets are scored, any subsequent
    Failure to Fire in the same sub-event and for any reason, when a target
    is called and the target appears promptly and within the legal limits of
    flight, shall be ruled “LOST” and shall be scored accordingly. Cumulative
    application of the rule is prohibited (failures to fire do not accumulate
    from sub-event to sub-event), and “sub-event” shall be as defined by
    Official Rule IV, E.

    5. Shoot Management is required to examine each score sheet before
    the score is posted, and any target scored as a Failure to Fire after two
    (2) allowable Failure to Fire as set forth above, shall be scored “LOST”
    whether originally scored as “LOST” by the referee/scorer or not. "
     
  3. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    The rule clearly states that you cannot turn down birds for "any reason". If the shooter voluntarily turned down a legal bird, it is scored as lost. The key word is voluntarily.

    Pat Ireland
     
  4. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Pat--I just wish they would enforce that. I have shot on many squads with shooters that practice bird selection. I'm an easy going guy and never say anything. Its "cheating" plain and simple in my book. If thats the way a shooter wants to win, you ain't really winning.---Matt
     
  5. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Look at it this way - you can't turn down a target and claim a FTF. If it was slow, broken, illegal etc. and you turn it down, those aren't FTFs. A ftf is something that happens: a flinch, a bad primer, wrong barrel selected, no shell etc., not a decision you make. You cannot turn down targets just because you want to.

    Now some posters will weigh in with "who's going to stop you", but hopefully you are above that and are really wondering about what the rule is as oppossed to what you might be able to get away with.
     
  6. Stumpi24

    Stumpi24 Member

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    870 how can you call a flinch a legal ftf, that's crap, a ftf should be the gun or shells malfunctioning, and the person should get two then decide to get new shells or new gun, all people on the line can tell if there is a slow or fast pull, these are o.k. But people should not get the chance to pick targets and this does happen. This is an abused problem. Thanks Stan
     
  7. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    As I understand the rule, a FTF means you pulled the trigger and the wad didn't leave the barrel.

    I've seen several targets that were illegal and I've fired at all of them. I'm just not fast enough to notice until it's too late. The problem for me is that I get very little practice at seeing illegal targets because they are so rare.

    I like the rule the way it is.
     
  8. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Stump:

    I'm telling you what the rule means. If you don't agree with the rule, that's one thing, but the rule applies as I wrote. It's been discussed enough that you should be aware of this. I didn't write it, but I do understand it.

    Rastoff, the rule is much more encompassing than your example. Read the rule, particularily the part about, and I'm paraphrasing here - "for ANY reason" OTHER than voluntarily not shooting at a legal target.

    Let's not get into this again.
     
  9. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Nothing wrong with the rule. Problem's with the mindset of some shooters...

    also known as "no honor among thieves"


    Jim
     
  10. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    Sure, that's the point. But, I really do think it's that simple. I also believe it's a shame that we need rules that are so long to explain something so simple.

    What bugs me is that some attempt to exploit rules like this to turn down targets they simply don't want to shoot.
     
  11. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Each scorer should be provided with a flinch meter so they can tell when the FTF rule should be allowed. HMB
     
  12. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    A flinch is usually pretty easy to spot. See that guy walking towards the traphouse?
     
  13. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    The rule should be changed to permit "allowable failure to fire" for ANY reason. It's almost that now, with a "flinch" being so hard to detect.
    It was never a good situation to require the scorer -frequently an inexperienced young boy or girl, so have to leave the chair, walk over to a shooter and pull the trigger on the gun he's holding. Worse, if he's got a release trigger.
    Most shooters agree that the rule has not been abused since it's inception.
    If somebody voluntarily turns down a target, so what? The next one he gets may be worse.
     
  14. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    "If somebody voluntarily turns down a target, so what? The next one he gets may be worse."


    So What??? Yeah the next one might be worse but what if they don't pick that one either. The problem is, its against the rules and that is the crap that makes an event run slower and slower and operate like crap. What if all (5) shooters on the squad did that crap? Don't get me wrong, i love to savor the time i have shooting. This is not the way i like to enjoy my shoots. I've shot with shooters who have done this every post all 100 targets. A flinch or an illegal target is one thing but cheating is cheating. I think 9 out of 10 times either the scorer is not educated enough to realize whats going on or they are just too scared to say anything.---Matt
     
  15. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    The rule isn't that bad, it's mainly the shooters that prefer to learn their rules from "so and so at the club" instead of reading and trying to understand what the truth is. I don't even think the flinch part is that bad, since I've had my share of those; problem is the gun always goes off in my case!

    As I said in my first post, the ftf rule doesn't let you CHOOSE "to turn down" any targets.
     
  16. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    "I've shot with shooters who have done this every post all 100 targets."
    Let's see: that would be 3 "lost targets" per 25, or 12 targets lost for the 100 bird event.
    Didn't you say anything?
     
  17. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    dickgtax----Honestly no i didn't say anything. I know why bitch if you won't speak yourself. I'll be honest in i'm still learning the rules after 6 years of registered targets. I also believe it is not the other shooters responsablity to run a legal shoot but shoot management including scorers and field supervisors. I think now days, i would speak up.---Matt
     
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