1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Explain collective bargain rights

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by smsnyder, Feb 23, 2011.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,830
    What does it mean and how does it effect budgets.? Thanks
     
  2. fritzi93

    fritzi93 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    321
    Troublemaker. [wink] Okay, I'll bite.

    As it applies to the public sector, it means the gov't worker unions try to get their guy elected (almost invariably a Dem) so they're sitting on both sides of the negotiating table, so to speak. He gives 'em what they want, so they have more money to keep the ball rolling. More union campaign contributions, Dem gets elected, unions get even more next time.

    Taxpayers don't get a seat at the table. I wish I was joking.
     
  3. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,639
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    That was very funny ho ho.

    In the case of Wisconsin's present brouhaha, they are talking about the usual negotiation between the school board of an area and the teacher's union.

    They want to be able to argue about hours of work, classroom size, Viagra to be covered under health care (Yes, milwaukee, last year) other working conditions which may go to desk size, break times, just about any damn thing.

    Many of the things they would be discussing would have a financial impact. Which is why the current administration needs it abolished to balance the budget.

    HM
     
  4. shelly

    shelly TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    752
    fritzi93, that was a very good and very concise expanation of the situation. Well done. I wish you were joking too.
     
  5. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,946
    Location:
    Eastern Washington
    Anyone receiving a wage from taxpayers dollars, should not have been allowed to form any kind of a union PERIOD!!

    I don't care if they themselves are paying taxes! Their pay comes from the people!

    Problem solved!
     
  6. southjblue

    southjblue Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,646
    Right on faller---SJB---
     
  7. crusha

    crusha TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,762
    The "right" to bargain collectively (I use the term advisedly, since it is actually a privilege) means the ability of government workers to bargain AGAINST THE TAXPAYER as a _group_, rather than based on what their individual abilities will garner in the marketplace.
     
  8. fritzi93

    fritzi93 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    321
    If you're a politician, it ain't your money, so how careful are you gonna be with the taxpayer's money? Private sector union negotiations are another matter, both sides have skin in the game.

    As I understand it, in Wisconsin the brouhaha is about eliminating collective bargaining for *benefits*, not pay. That's where the really astonishing growth has been, since it's easier to hide from the public.
     
  9. crusha

    crusha TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,762
    The politician is just directing the money to people who will direct it back to _him_.
     
  10. fritzi93

    fritzi93 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    321
    I should disclose that my wife is a teacher, and in a state with collective bargaining rights for gov't employees. I don't want to get any more specific, but teachers in 48 states get a sweeter deal than she gets.

    How collective bargaining works in practice varies from state-to-state, so one shouldn't assume too much. Not every state is like Wisconsin or Ohio.

    Nevertheless, the existence of public sector unions troubles me. I'm all for civil service protections, which by the way were originally intended to put an end to the "spoils system". It seems to me public sector unions inevitably become politicized. Even FDR opposed them BTW.
     
  11. dalog

    dalog Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2010
    Messages:
    143
    The capacity for government employee unions to blackmail the American people is exactly what President Franklin Delano Roosevelt worried about when he warned in 1937:

    “All government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining. . .cannot be transplanted into the public service. . .The very nature and purpose of Government make it impossible for administrative officials to represent fully or to bind the employer in mutual discussions with Government employee organizations. . .Their employer is the whole people, who speak by means of laws enacted by their representatives in Congress. Accordingly, administrative officials and employees alike are governed and guided, and in many instances restricted, by laws which establish policies, procedures, or rules in personnel matters.”
     
  12. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,639
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    George Meany was AFL President in the Eisenhower years, and he also spoke out against collective bargaining in the public sector.

    It is quite obvious that the circle is a closed loop. Union dues goes to elect Democrat leaders, who in turn pay back the unions with favorable legislation and other perks like the free health care and pensions in Wisconsin.

    These teachers are now holding up the kids as if any dwho oppose this marriage made in Hell are anti education or against the children.

    Nothing could be further from the truth. The appalling failure of Wisconsin teachers to improve education is obvious, thought unreported by left leaning media. Milwaukee techers have very high pay and turn out kids who cant read, write, figure, or articulate.

    Disgusting. Hopefully a merit system can be devised that will improve the education of our children to be competitive in today's world.

    I personally see a host of overpaid school administration in many of our districts. Let's see what happens there too.

    Budget repair is only one side of this coin.

    HM
     
  13. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,294
    Collective bargaining for Public Employees may not be the absolute best alternative but it sure beats the nepotism, political patronage and its attendant corruption that preceded it.

    Back in the "Good Old Days" you got your job by paying off the politicians who controlled that sector of public employment. The "buy in" could have been straight out cash (a "finders fee") political support (usually done during the normal working hours), tolerance and acceptance of corruption and sub-standard work (otherwise the contractor or supplier simply told THEIR politician that YOU were non-cooperative and you were gone POOF!) or more often a combination of all of these things.

    Yep, gee I wonder why big money wants to get rid of the job protections for the, currently covered, public employees who inspect and approve their work before the contractors are paid THEIR government money. $900 dollar hammers anyone or $6,000 toilet seats for you?

    How many scams and frauds have been reported by covered employees who had at least some minimum protections of their job and would have had NO Protection at all had there not been a contract in place?

    All you will be doing is changing the money you pay the employees to instead cover the graft and corruption of political friends. Not much of an improvement as I see it!
     
  14. shelly

    shelly TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    752
    Come on pyrdek, that's ridiculous- it's not either unions or political patronage. The Civil Service system did away with political patronage long ago, long before unions were allowed for government employees. What it's about is government employee unions, which are led by socialists, and the Democratic Party working in collusion to screw the taxpayers and run their states. Getting rid of government employee unions most assuredly would be a huge improvement.

    Maybe you would rather have government unions in charge of the states than free elected officials, but I don't.
     
  15. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,294
    Have YOU ever worked with or even been involved with "Civil Service Commissions" or whatever your state may call them? Take a look at WHO APPOINTED the MEMBERS of these commissions and then tell me how they are so free of political influence.

    Here are the web page posted biographies of the TWO Civil Service Commissioners for Pennsylvania. Yes, there are only two and both are appointed by the GOVERNOR. HE IS A POLITICIAN!

    Commissioner Odelfa Smith Preston

    Odelfa Smith Preston was appointed to the State Civil Service Commission by Governor Edward G. Rendell and confirmed by the Pennsylvania State Senate on July 9, 2009. Prior to her appointment to the Commission, Commissioner Smith Preston served as a project manager for Bank of New York Mellon in Pittsburgh. She is vice president of the Delta Service and Education Foundation and is affiliated with the Pittsburgh Association for Financial Professionals.

    Commissioner James W. Martin

    James W. Martin was appointed to the State Civil Service Commission by Governor Mark Schweiker and confirmed by the Pennsylvania State Senate on November 27, 2002. Mr. Martin was renominated to serve a second term by Governor Edward G. Rendell on April 10, 2008 and confirmed by the Pennsylvania Senate on June 9, 2008.

    Prior to his appointment to the Commission, Commissioner Martin served as Deputy Secretary for Property Management with the Department of General Services (DGS). Commissioner Martin entered state government in 1995, when he joined DGS as Director of the Bureau of Vehicle Management.

    Now please tell me again how these POLITICAL APPOINTED COMMISSIONERS will NOT SERVE their political masters!

    If you don't believe me, check out the CS web page for PA.

    <A href="http://www.scsc.state.pa.us/portal/server.pt/community/civil_service_home/9164"> PA Civil Service </A\>
     
  16. shelly

    shelly TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2010
    Messages:
    752
    If that was intended to be proof of something, it fell way short.
     
  17. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,294
    Shelly,

    I notice you choose to not answer my questions. Why do you think there will be no political influence in the Civil Service Commission? Have you ever been involved in civil service commission activities?

    If you read one of my other postings on a different thread, you could see my history of employment that would pertain to this question. What is your history?
     
  18. wpairishshot

    wpairishshot Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2009
    Messages:
    173
    Hello I havent put any words down about this but I feel compelled. I dont know anything about payoffs to keep a job but I do know this. When I was very young I would visit my grandmother who lived about 100 yards from the local DOT building or in local parlance, the highway shed. Every so many years they would talk about how the guys would be changing parties or lose their jobs because of their political affiliation. Did the unions channge that? I dont know. No person worth their salt should have to worry about his/her job just because the administration changes parties. But it happened.
     
  19. DJM

    DJM Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    519
    Location:
    Central Minnesota
    Those $600 hammers and $6000 toilet seats are not the result of crooked contrators or poor inspections by government employees. They cost that much because the government writes a lengthy Mil spec for something that does not currently exist. Then they do not need enough volume to get any of the benefits of mass production. Up front costs like tooling and engineering have to be paid for with the few units ordered.
     
  20. KENENT1

    KENENT1 Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,392
    Location:
    Beloit, WI
    what does the civil service comission have to do with outlandish benefits that the taxpayers have to pay for???


    tony
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.