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Evaluation of holographic sight for cross firing

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by joe kuhn, Sep 19, 2011.

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  1. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I attended Phil Kiner's trap shooting clinic yesterday and received some of the most valuable feedback on my cross firing solution to date. I attended the clinic with the idea that Phil might give me his opinion of my solution and evaluate my shooting at the same time. I broke some of my best scores ever with this gun a couple of weeks ago so I was extremely interested in hearing what Phil might have to say especially since Phil is well known for his work on cross firing in his clinics, is an extremely well accomplished shooter himself and a great technician.

    I attended the clinic just like any other shooter with no prior arrangement with Phil. I know he knew I was coming and that he had probably heard or read about my gun and work with the holographic sight from traphshooters.com. Phil informed me that he had worked with two other shooters with holographic scopes in the past. We went ahead with the clinic just like I was any other attendee, which I truly was.

    Right away the video camera showed that I was still cross firing along with several other attendees. Phil noted that you might break a target when you cross fire, and you will certainly miss, particularly at yardage. I had taken some time off from shooting with the start up of school and just being busy in general, so my shooting skills were not in top form. In the video you can clearly see the barrel go wide left of the target and the shot go left and even high for a loss or a poor break. Other attendees had the same problem. I was not being given special treatment here. My videos looked like theirs. Tape came out for the glasses of a fellow shooter, but I was given a lesser solution presumably because my cross firing was less serious. Phil did say that he'd give me an 80% solved with the scope.

    He demonstrated cross firing to the group by having me stand in front of the room with my gun and pointing at the middle of three knots in the wall paneling. I turned the sight on and pointed at the middle dot. All is well, target broken. Then he had me close my right eye and point at the center dot. When I did so the END of my barrel lined up with the center dot, but the barrel AS A WHOLE pointed at the left most dot. Clearly a problem that would result in a loss.

    This demonstration shows what's going on with cross firing. Everyone in the class had no problem seeing the issue and I sat back down in my seat having learned something. My thoughts are that my left eye is rather unskilled at using the length of the barrel to line the gun up at the time of the shot. I'm wondering if it can be better trained to help out if it must. It needs to not use the end of the barrel on the target, but rather the whole barrel. This might be accomplished by closing the on shoulder eye and giving that other eye the chance to tune up. Patch the good eye! Now that's different. I'm also wondering if I can put tape on the bottom of my left lens to block out the barrel so as to remove the final cue about gun position to my off shoulder eye. Both ideas deserve further work.

    Phil also gave me some exercises I can do while shooting to help with the problem. I believe they do help because I practiced them right in his clinic. One exercise is to close my off shoulder eye until it is my turn to shoot, then open it and shoot with both eyes open. This resulted in nice strong hits. Another is to wear a patch at home over the left eye to strengthen the on shoulder eye. This is something anyone can do with minimal effort. Both exercises strengthen the right eye.

    One of the things I noticed in the clinic is just how hard it is to get shooting behavior to change. Several issues were noted and corrected immediately like leaning back just before you shoot. Hardware issues were worked on and corrected, but time after time we would come back into the viewing room and see the same behaviors all over again resulting in lost targets. I include myself in this and note the frustration at seeing myself cross fire once again. Doh! Don't do that Kuhner! The overall theme is that you must see the target well, then you will break it. I would go out again and work and work at it and see some improvement - less cross firing. By the end, I shot a 24 at short yardage, missing a straight away, of all things. There is hope, my friends.

    Here's the Kuhner I shot at the clinic.

    Joe

    joekuhn_2008_030343.jpg
     
  2. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I sent Phil the first draft of this post. He commented back with:

    Regarding: "I include myself in this and note the frustration at seeing myself cross fire once again. Doh! Don't do that Kuhner!" Remember this is not something you can consciously or subconsciously control-- when you cross-fire you don't do something "WRONG", it just happens.

    Thanks Phil. Loved your clinic. The videos were the best! I'm determined to solve this problem completely and share my results.

    Joe
     
  3. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Joe, thanks very much for your candid description of the clinic. A question, did you or anyone else in the class make that "Z" motion with the gun barrel where the left eye takes control for a while and then gives control back to the right eye at the last minute ?
     
  4. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Yesterday there seemed to be plenty of 'C' moves, but the 'Z' move was mentioned. What are you working on to resolve your cross firing?
     
  5. RunGunIPSC

    RunGunIPSC TS Member

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    I like your set-up very much. It looks like a lot of thought went into it. I have a cross-fire problem also. Doc punctured right eye capsule when doing cataract ops. Both capsules were matched for distance vision. This changed the implant slightly so the rt eye sees close better and distance vision is very slightly blurred,thus the left takes over at target distance at times. So I cross-fire. I am going to try a C-More Railway on an 1100 using a trigger pinned Weaver mount. More for the fun than anything since I have gone to 1 eye.
    You might consider a C-More Railway as they have far less bulk than an Eo-Tech. This may allow more visual acuity of the target & its environment. It appears it would go rite on your set-up. They are very rugged & well loved by the open race gun people. $210 from Shooters Connection in KY with an 8" or 16" dot. Tom Lobonc
     
  6. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Thanks Tom - that looks like a great option to try.

    Joe
     
  7. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Let me sum up. I shoot right handed. With my right eye closed, plenty of the barrel is still visible to the left eye even though the bbl is low. I will try tape on my lense to hide the barrel and still be able to see the target with my left eye. If that doesn't work, I'm going back to my last ribbed gun and will try shooting it with my right eye closed. Sounds crazy, but it's worth a try. Maybe instead of fighting with my left eye, it can be trained.

    I've got to somehow take away the barrel completely for the left eye. Maybe some type of illusion can be used here. The end of that barrel seems to be the problem...
     
  8. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Tape toilet paper tubes to the front of your glasses.
     
  9. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    You may have an idea there.

    One more idea that is close to Brian's but more refined: put a small bead sized dot on my left lens that shows the point of impact so both eyes have accurate cues about where the gun is. I think I like this idea the best and will try it first. I wonder if Phil has ever tried this with a shooter. Use those binoculars (both eyes)!
     
  10. MKillian

    MKillian TS Member

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    <I>"I will try tape on my lense to hide the barrel and still be able to see the target with my left eye."</I>

    Phil used black cloth hockey tape when I was at his clinic. Works better than other tapes I tried: leaves no residue on lenses, sticks like white on rice, just like closing the eye and no reflections at all on the inside of the lens; I use 1 1/2" wide tape across the upper part of the lens.

    <I>"If that doesn't work, I'm going back to my last ribbed gun and will try shooting it with my right eye closed."</I>

    How the heck will a right-handed shooter hit anything with their right eye closed?

    <I>"put a dot on my left lens that shows the point of impact so both eyes have accurate cues about where the gun is....I wonder if Phil has ever tried this with a shooter."</I>

    Before we decided that a dot was not enough for me, we moved one all over the lens to see the effect. We came to the conclusions that if I could see the target with my left eye (never mind the barrel) I would occasionally cross fire. We found that it was definitely better to block all the visual input to the left eye. I am only kidding myself and hindering my progress by using little dots and trying to convince both myself and other people that I don't have THAT MUCH of a problem that I need anything more.

    Mike
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Mike,

    My tape is going to be on the bottom right of my left lens to cover the view of the bbl only. I'd still like to use that left eye to see the target. I happen to have some hockey tape in my tool box. It works great on AR style grips. Will try it. Thanks.

    By putting a small bead sized dot on my left lens I'm attempting to show the point of impact, not cover anything. Not sure this is clear. It's an inverse approach.

    Thanks for your post. Appreciate your note about not having that much of a problem. Acceptance is an important step I'm still working on too. It's hard to argue with a lost target and a video that shows the wide left move.
     
  12. kfbagt

    kfbagt Member

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    There's no way you can focus ona bead with your right eye and a dot on your glasses with your left. You don't look through the same spot in the lens as the bird moves around.

    Have you tried closing your left eye? It's not optimal but should be worth giving a serious effort to before you start closing your right eye. I'm pretty sure that's the most extreme solution I have ever heard.

    Paul
     
  13. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    When you tape your right eye and try to shoot using your left eye let us know how that works. I have an idea you will learn why we all miss when cross firing.

    I have to give you this Joe, you are determined to be different.
     
  14. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I'm determined to solve this and don't care where it goes mentally.
     
  15. Wolfman

    Wolfman Member

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    I attended the same clinic on Saturday (missed the rain Joe!). I also had the same problem. You could clearly see the left eye taking over, and the thing that oinked me was I thought I was behind them! Arrgghhh.

    I have been considering some alternates - I shot one eyed for years, and last year Dean & Dennis converted me to two eyed. I really like the clear and unobstructed view, and it feels natural (other then the misses). Phil suggested a bead blinder, which I will try. However, I think the I need a different avenue. I suspect that the mere presence of the target in the left eye will cause issues - if you read the target with the left eye, I am thinking that you instantly set your moves up based on that ocular event based on the left eye.

    There fore, I am also going to explore both hypnosis and (at Phil's suggestion) wearing a blinder on my left eye.

    I am also pondering the causal effects - here's my premise (based on long term shooting):

    You see the flash and move to the flash bringing it into hard focus. I think it is possible that the cross firing may not be as much an eye taking over so much as the brain reading the target as though the left eye saw it. Kind of like a Spoonerism, or a mental Metathesis. Putting things in the wrong order. I know I have a problem (minor) with this in speech, and love to play with it. I wonder if this could be a more direct cause than the left eye.

    To elaborate a little more, I have heard stories of shooters with cataracts developing in their right eye who still shoot pretty good. I would suspect that they get sufficient targeting information from the left eye but interpret it as a right eye move.
     
  16. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Paul,

    Maybe you meant this and just didn't say it:

    I will look at the target with both eyes and when the red circle and dot on my left lens come across where I'm looking (at the target), I will fire. That seems doable just like focusing on a target with binoculars or toilet paper tubes if you're from Oregon. Hah.
     
  17. MKillian

    MKillian TS Member

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    At the clinic I attended, there were several people who were still crossfiring even with the off lens fully taped up. Now I am unable to explain how or why but Phil has apparently seen this before and instructed them to close their off eye behind the tape (black hockey) and misses due to cross firing all but disappeared.

    Phil sort of explained it:

    He said that each of them had tried to shoot with 2 eyes before they discovered that it wasn't working. Their brains still hold images of the target/barrel as they saw it through the off (dominant) eye. When they are in a shooting context their brains can recover those images as long as there is any visual input at all going into that eye (peripheral images). The only way to keep the brain from calling up remembered images in this situation is to close the eye so the brain has no reason to include it in the activity.

    Mike
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Nice explanation! I believe it.

    I've been experimenting with a dot of play doh on my left lense. I have a utility pipe outside my window so that's what I'm aiming at with my hands as a gun. Next I put a dot on my left lense so that it lines up with the pipe. Now I have two things to line up with the target as I pivot - my fore finger on my outstretched arm and the dot on my left lense. It's just too wierd. For one thing the dot is really blurry so it's no real help. The other is it's attached to my glasses so they have to constantly be pushed back to the same place on my nose. Reject. Maybe dual holos would make a good spoof picture here with the racoons, but this setup just doesn't seem helpful.

    There is something I noticed that is extremely wierd and unexpected when doing this. When I set up as described above and closed my right eye to be sure the play doh dot on my left lense is lined up with the target - every time I close my right eye, the dot of play doh got smaller. This happens every time. Both eyes are focused on the pipe. Close the right eye. Dot gets smaller and clearer. Open right eye, dot becomes fuzzy and pulls back. What's that? Every time. I'M LOOKING AT THE PIPE WITH BOTH EYES.

    Is there an eye doctor in the house? Must be a one eyed focus thing. The fuzzy part I get because I don't often notice dirt on my glasses, but the shrinking part when the other eye closes. Hey. I know that dot isn't changing size. I'm focusing on the pipe with both eyes. Isn't that focus primary?
     
  19. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    I have an idea how to fix this. What about side by side but with the barrels exactly the same distance apart as your pupils are, all the way to the muzzle, you can get that distance from any optomologist. Have a rib and bead on each barrel and a receiver to accept them and a stock with the proper cast and drop to put both eyes in line with the appropriate bead. Two triggers one for each barrel. As an option a fence running between the barrels to prevent the wrong eye from seeing the other bead.

    The only thing I haven't figured out is how to know which trigger to pull when, but probably the right barrel on right hand birds and the left barrel on left hand birds. I'm trying to think of a good name for it. How does crossrectuphobia sound?
     
  20. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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