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estate shells--short on shot

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by BBowen, Jul 1, 2007.

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  1. BBowen

    BBowen Member

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    i am still checking shot count and quality on estate and other shells. i have disassembled at 50 estates from different lots. they are consistently short on shot count. some are as many as 80 short. the other issue is that the shot is the same regardless of what is marked on the case. i have found shot as small as .063 and as big as .107 in the same shell. the shot is also not round.

    i checked a few rios from the same lot and found the shot count to be consistently around 500 for the number 8 marked on the case. (461 is the count for 1 1/8 oz of 8s) the shot is not as round as it should be.

    the remingtons and federal papers that i have checked are all over on the shot count usually about 30 for 7 1/2 and about 45 for number 8s.

    when you shoot estate shells you are shorting yourself by as much as 20% on the shot count. we shoot a lot of test patterns here and it is very difficult to get effective patterns with low shot counts.

    good shooting, bruce bowen
     
  2. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Bruce, I use the cheapie shells with the steel base for Singles and Doubles but my own Green Dot reloads or factory AA's for 27 yard Handicap. As you know some guns will not eject the steel base empties. I use a TMX and MX-3 and I can eject the cheapie loads but I am a little concerned about chamber damage over the long haul with those hulls. Any comments??
     
  3. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    Bruce Thanks. This is why I always laugh at the why reload posts where they compare the price of the el cheapos with the price of a reload using quality products in KNOWN amounts. Of course I've never been able to understand why People buy a $14,000 shotgun and a $50,000 Vette and then buy cheap shells and gas to feed them.
    --- Chip King ---
     
  4. BBowen

    BBowen Member

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    miketmx

    i don't think there is any question that the steel heads and steel primers will do damage to the action face. evidence for this is all the damaged guns that need to have the area around the firing pin hole repaired.

    bruce bowen

    sturgis south dakota
     
  5. Texas Ton

    Texas Ton TS Member

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    Bruce, when you find something other than steel primers for us to use, you'll be sure and tell us?

    Though, I do believe the zinc flashed base (particularly on the Winchesters) causes wear to the chamber.
     
  6. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Texas Ton, Remington STS209, Winchester 209 and the primers used in Kemen ammunition all have brass caps on the primers. I don't know about Federal 209. Fiocchi 616 definitely has a steel cap, as do the primers used in Rio and UMC loads.

    The brass on STS hulls is brass, not steel. I'm told the AA brass is real also,but don't know. Gun Club, Rio, UMC and all the cheapo promotional loads have steel "brass".
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Dunno now but at one time Remington said the anvil in their primers were made of brass also. To prevent damage to areas around firing pin holes. Now? I have some old Rem. primers I'll use a magnet on to find my own answer, no new ones though. Hap

    I have 3000 old Rem. #97 size 209s and tried the magnet on them, they stick as well.
     
  8. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Bruce, Neil Winston made a comment here a couple years ago about the shells he checked at the Grand were barely legal. At the time, I opened some of the STS Light target and Nitro27 shells I bought at the Grand and they were all over nominal weight. All had at least 10 grains more shot in them and many had 15 grains more. The latter were not legal under the 3% tolerance rule.

    So 10 to 14 of your extra count is to to heavier than 1 1/8oz loads. The rest is probably due to slightly undersized shot. I think that is intentional, because the manufacturers want the absolute best, "most" performance with these premium loads. There are lots of braggin' rights for the manufacturer associated with a big win using one of these loads. I find the same thing in store bought samples of these two loads. The weight is always over 492.2 grains.
     
  9. Texas Ton

    Texas Ton TS Member

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    zzt, the battery cups on Remington and AA shells are not steel, but the primer frame is and that is what causes abrasion to the receiver face, or bolt breech.

    Yes, the premiums from the big 3 still have brass bases.

    I have a new Kemen and new RIO in hand, the primers are all steel. The only other primer I know of that ever had anything other than a steel cup, was the original Fiocchis when they made both the 615 and 616, white and brown flash hole covers.
     
  10. jnoemanh

    jnoemanh TS Member

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    I recently opened up all three of the WalMart bargain shells, Rem Game Loads (which I believe are identical to Gun Clubs), Win Universals, Federal Field and Target. All were marked as being #8 shot. The shot in Rems was right on the money, all pellets within .003" of .090", and was obviiously round. Win shot varied fron .080" - .095", and was obviously mishapen. Federal had as much variation as Win and was even more Mishapen, even had some welded pellets.

    What this means in pattern and ability to break targets, I don't know. Prices were the same for all three, so I shot Rems, but with the recent price increases, Rems are now about $4.65, and Win and Federal are $4.25. I'll try the cheaper ones and see whether I can see a difference.
     
  11. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    I just got 4 cases of estates 3dram 1 1/8 7.5. I had used estates all spring before supplier ran out. just restocked. I never had a problem befor with ejecting out of my CitoriXT, but today it seemed to be hanging up. I will tear a few apart to see what im getting. I have been tearing down several brands and types becouse of intrest in whats there and what I maybe reloading. Shot has been all over the place on sizes and loads STS being the most consistant.
    My browning auto doesnt like AA so I have none to tear down. I also have had shot by the bag not what it is labeled. I got a bag of 7.5 that measure .11 very uniform and round though. got a mixed bag 8 9 7.5 stuff looked strange kinda rough, maybe recycled. westcoast if i remember right. I had a run of poor gun club primers missing plate where pin strikes, buldging cases miss fires damaged bases 10 in one case. the other cases where fine except i shot some very poor scores.
     
  12. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Geez...great post, but knowing this shakes the old confidence in "store bought" shells. I shot Estates today and did well...winning more Estate shells. I thought I was "set" to use them in future competition. The comment here about using them for practice and then using my carefully loaded Rem STS with good components makes a great deal of sense! I look forward to other info from those more technically astute than me to cut open Estates...or others...and tell us what they find. One fellow selling Estates at the Missouri Fall Handicap said they come off the same assembly line at Federal as do other Federal shells. Best Regards, Ed
     
  13. Hill topper

    Hill topper Member

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    Bruce,

    One thing that you did not address was the weight of the shot charge.
    If the shot had less antimony, each pellet would be heavier and there would be less pellets in a given load.

    Did you happen to weigh the shot charges?

    ed.
     
  14. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    good point hill- apparently you and I were the only ones who figured out that you have to weigh 1 1/8 oz of shot to know if you were shorted. Counting the shot is goofy, since the shot might be a little larger than advertised and the antimony has an effect.
     
  15. BMC

    BMC Member

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    Ive torn apart about a half dozen of the Federal 1oz game loads that I like to shoot and four of the six were spot on 1 oz of shot. Two of them were one pellet shy of 1oz on my digital scale.
     
  16. shoot'er

    shoot'er TS Member

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    Anonymous,
    I was just up there and Mr. Bowen was showing me, he cut open several shells of estates they were #8s 1 1/8 once. There was an 1 1/8 of shot in there but it was varing sizes. Like you'd get a 10 shot size and then a 7 or larger shot size. And there would only be around 360-380 pellets in the round. When a #8 1 1/8 once shot should have, correct me if I'm wrong, 461 pellets. Plus on top of that about 90% of the estates shot was NOT round. Hope this helps

    J.D.
     
  17. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    JD, the claim was that Estate shells were short on shot- this has nothing to do with pellet count or size. Fact: they weren't short on shot if they contained 1 1/8 oz of shot. Hope this helps.

    If the shot isn't consistently sized or whatever, now that's a different problem- BUT IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING SHORTED ON SHOT.
     
  18. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    Well, DB, you would have a point if shotgun shells stated on the box how many pellets they contained. Hint: they don't make any claim as to the number of pellets. Is that really so hard to understand??????
     
  19. foghorn220

    foghorn220 Active Member

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    Must had been why I missed 2 birds today using the Estates in singles.

    Fog
     
  20. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    OK, DB, I give up. If they gave you 1 1/4 oz of shot, I guess you would be whining about no having "enough" pellets". I thought 1.125 oz meant what it says, but according to you it means X amount of pellets. Whatever blows up your skirt.
     
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