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EoTech sight on K-80 - updated 9/24

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by dverna, Sep 17, 2011.

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  1. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    I have mounted an EoTech 512 on my old style K-80. I employed a B-Square rib mount but the rib slot had to be milled out as it is designed for a 3/8" rib and will not fit the K-80 tapered rib. Tron did the milling. I used a PFS with Ultimate comb to get a reasonable stock fit as the sight sits high over the gun.

    I had (and continue to have) doubts that the "clamping" system used for the rib is adequate; but it lasted for the 300 rounds fired today. So here is how it worked and my first impressions.

    I started with a session on the patterning board and got it set up rather quickly. POI was 8" high at 30 yards. Started shooting singles.

    Started with a 23, then a bunch of 23's and 24's. Played with POI too much. Also experimented with the sight set close to the receiver or far forward. Finally gave up and went back to the pattern board and set it up to shoot 2" high at 30 yards. Shot a 24 and 25 with the flatter POI and good hits. Setting the site closer to the eye worked better for me.

    Results are below what I do with the K-80 TS, but better than I expected. It seems a flat set up is better than my normal POI (100% high). I do not like the reticule set up with a 1 MOA dot and 65 MOA circle. The 65 MOA circle should give about a 20" circle at singles distances and this is OK for singles but can lead to sloppiness. It is too large for HC. Using the 1 MOA dot leads to being too deliberate and hurts on wide angles. I would like to try about an 20 MOA circle but I am not aware of any sights with this. I have found an 8 MOA sight and may invest in it.

    I am shooting a bit slower. Partly due to the newness and partly I find I am aiming more. Speed should come - not worried about it.

    I found it difficult to see smoke. I am used to lots of smoke with the full choke (.034") on the TS. That caused me to do a lot more POI "hunting" than I should not have done. Once my buddy arrived, he told me I was hitting pretty solidly - so, it seems I was having trouble seeing smoke with the EoTech but it was there. I could see more smoke when set to the flatter POI. I was using a .028" choke and will put in the .033" next time. I had left the tubes homes so could not go tighter at the range. If the EoTech makes smoke harder to see it is a negative for me as I use centered hits to provide feedback. The game is 90% mental - so I need to address this or remove it from my head as an issue.

    The big positive is that field of view is excellent and the line of sight is so high that there is no barrel blockage to hamper seeing the bird. I used various hold points - all high but more shooting is needed to determine what works best. This should be of interest to one-eyed shooters who wish to hold a higher gun. As Joe Kuhn has proved, cross firing is nearly impossible.

    Results are good enough to warrant further work. Stock and recoil pad changes are needed to get the fit I desire. I will purchase a second rib for the O/U barrels to evaluate the sight on Doubles. I am concerned that one sight will not do the job as it is unlikely the POI will be identical between guns. Changing the sight from gun to gun is easy with the Piticanny system but loss (or a shift due to the ribs not being perfectly aligned between guns) of zero is not acceptable. I will report back next week as there is an ATA shoot tomorrow and I will revert to the TS for registered birds.

    Don Verna
     
  2. kfbagt

    kfbagt Member

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    I'd love to see a photo of what this setup looks like.

    Paul
     
  3. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Don,that sounds really good for everything being so new to you! I've never shot the EoTech but have with the Holo-Sight and I liked the dot in it for singles and handicaps. I broke a 24 from the 27 my first time out with it!

    I think if I was to attempt another such sight system, I'd build a mounting system between the stock/receiver with a Weaver rail to make it adjustable for eye length. That wouldn't alter the gun at all?

    One more point, such a system will teach a shooter how to use his peripheral vision quicker also!

    Good luck my friend!

    Hap
     
  4. Rebel Sympathy

    Rebel Sympathy Well-Known Member

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    Don:
    Sounds wonderful with possible potential. I can see where this could get very interesting. Please keep us posted on what you learn.
    My real name is,
    Mike Durhan
     
  5. bluedsteel

    bluedsteel Member

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    Very interesting. Please let us know how this progresses. I know Burris makes the "speed bead" which is somewhat like the Eotech,but fits between the stock and receiver on specific autos. I have heard nothing yet about it's use for clay shooting.

    Bluedsteel
     
  6. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    I should mention that Mr. Winston has been kind enough to share his early experience with sight systems and I have corresponded with Joe Kuhn as well. The only thing "new" about this is its application to a break open gun.

    Neil has warned about mount/screw and sight failure due to recoil. That was another point in favor of using the PFS for testing. Bear in mind we need something that will withstand a minimum of 20k rounds (one year of serious shooting). One of the negatives of the EoTech is that it has significant mass and that negatively affects screw/mount reliability. But I have the sight (off my AR15), so that is why I used it. I have an Allor full choke barrel that crushes birds but did not wish to use it in case the mount/sight mass caused a rib failure. I have found a Trijicon sight that is very light (under 2 oz) and will likely test it. It is not cheap so I was not willing to spend $500+ unless the preliminary testing warranted it. I have a solution for the sight mount that requires more complex machining/fabrication than the milled B-Square and will be unaffected by recoil.

    Hap, I have some ideas for a unique mounting system that solves all the problems mentioned above. I am reluctant to say much as it may be patentable.

    Paul, I apologize for lack of photos and will get them up. Today was a bad day with a Board meeting, playing with the new toy, and preparing the traps for an ATA shoot tomorrow.

    I want to stress that out of the gate, my scores are lower - and that is what I expected. Conversely, Joe has shot his set up very well - in fact much better than I did today. The good news is I see potential. Anyone who has seen me shoot knows I am slow. I check the bead alignment, shift focus out to past the trap, relax and set the trigger and call for the bird. With the holographic sight there is not need to check alignment/setup or to change focus. I only focus on the screen. This seems to be different than the way Joe shoots - I believe he looks past the sight to the bird - but I could not do that. Much to learn and play with.

    Don Verna
     
  7. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Don,

    "set it up to shoot 2" high at 30 yards. Shot a 24 and 25 with the flatter POI and good hits. Setting the site closer to the eye worked better for me."

    That is consistent with my results. At a dozen paces I get a hole from the pattern that lies just on top of where the lines cross in a 't'. The closer to my eye the better as I can see more of the field. It gets you out there into the striking field.

    "The 65 MOA circle should give about a 20" circle at singles distances and this is OK for singles but can lead to sloppiness. It is too large for HC."

    I thought it would be too large for HC as well until someone said your pattern is bigger too so you should be ok. Then I settled into some yardage and now I would say that it's fine.

    I'm not sure I understand your sloppiness concept. Smoke will lead you to centered targets and if you're shooting flat the red circle will approximate your pattern. Rather than sloppy, I would say that's ideal.

    "I found it difficult to see smoke."

    I've not had this at all. I think something else must be wrong because I've never gotten such good, consistent smoke and I do see it well. I believe you are correct to tweak your choke.

    Great report Don. Thanks for sharing. In building a second Kuhner I've come to appreciate just how much tweaking I've done from the distance between the eye and the scope to little things like the size of the grip, lop, weight...

    We'll see what Phil Kiner has to say tomorrow.


    Joe
     
  8. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I do look out into the field below the red circle. When I'm feeling on top of things I look a little lower to get an earlier view of the target. There are times when I feel like I'm standing on top of those little targets.

    It took me several rounds just to get used to the red circle and stop staring at it. Now I see the target with both eyes and when the circle crosses where I'm looking. Pow.

    Joe
     
  9. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I'm finding a little longer POI makes the gun a little more responsive to upper torso pivoting. There's a shorter POI that feels 'right' then I add about a half an inch. Without it I find myself squeezing the gun at the shot which looks like a flinch. Back to the longer POI tomorrow.

    I put the old Kuhner back together tonight and will shoot it if I can set the sights in before shooting at Phil's clinic. It feels great. Scope is right there...
     
  10. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Joe,

    I was disappointed that we had an ATA shoot today and I could not play with the new toy. Once I got the POI down to 2" high (@ 30 inches) there was a noticeable increase in centered hits. But I only fired two fields with the setting (24 and 25). With the higher POI I started with, I was not getting a lot of smoke. Now that I know the thing works I am doing all further testing with the full choke. I do not know the best POI yet and I figure it will take another 500 rounds to get there.

    On a PM I have been asked how I checked POI and if stock adjustment is needed. First, I start testing POI at the "Winston" 13 yard standard (saves paper and walking - I am lazy). That gets me close. I then fire three shots at 30 yards (my singles hit distance) to determine center of pattern. I tweak from there using three shot patterns. THE ONLY WAY to check POI is on paper. The vast majority of shotgun shooters should use a rest. Unless you can shoot a rifle into tight groups, and KNOW you do not flinch, use a rest. My time as a three position small-bore competitor resulted in developing an above average ability to shoot from the standing position. Using three shots averages out any Minor "shakes" I have.

    There is NO stock adjustment needed to change POI. In fact, changing the stock will have NO effect on POI. You move the sight elevation and windage dials to change POI. It works like a scope on a rifle or pistol. Set the stock to give you a good head position and that is it.

    The sight has a +/- 40 minute (about +/- 40" @ 100 yards) range of adjustment. If the sight "runs out of room", it is easy to effect windage adjustment by using the sight base set screws to "twist" the sight base on the rib. This requires the mounting base slot to be a bit larger than the rib width - but mine was dead on. If you run out of elevation adjustment, with the K-80 you can use the rib adjustment system to bend the barrel up or down. With a gun like a Seitz, where the barrel is not deflected by rib adjustments, the sight base will need to be milled or shimmed such that the sight's adjustment range will be effective.

    One thing to consider, especially for you Beretta 390 series owners, is that you no longer need to bend the barrel for left (or right) shooting guns - or live with offset beads. The sight will correct windage problems.

    Don Verna
     
  11. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    The one big drawback to the EOTech is its height. It was designed to be at the same height as the carry handle sights on an M16/AR15. This means for most shotguns you'll have to have a very high comb. I tried mounting an EOTech on my spare/guest 1187, but it's way too large and way too bulky in that application for me.

    Been tempted to try a Burris Speed Bead sight. They have a really nice mount that sandwiches between the stock and receiver. Also note there are 1/8" and 1/4" riser blocks available for adjusting the POI. The simple fact is I'm not having any problem with Uni-Dot, fiberoptic 3-dot, or tritium 3-dot sights on various barrels, so I haven't been in an itchin' hurry to test a Speed Bead.
     
  12. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    After thinking about it, I decided that it made more sense to place the EoTech on a set of O/U barrels. There is no need for a longer sighting plane so the value of the unsingle is moot. Also, by putting the sight on O/U barrels I would be able to try doubles.

    If this works it means shooters may be able to eliminate adjustable ribs and combos - a significant savings. Also, it opens up the use of "unsaleable" guns like short barreled Skeet guns that have fallen out of favor. By installing a set of choke tubes these guns could be used for trap. Small stature shooters will also benefit from using shorter tubes.

    What I learned from the 500 rounds through the unsingle showed that I needed a better way to mount the rib. I was getting shifting of the mount after 200 rounds. For the O/U I used a steel filled epoxy to "trap" the clamps that bind the B-Square to the rib. This is a putty like epoxy and by using it to fill the opening in the rib the clamps cannot move fore and aft. I coated all surfaces with Slick 50 grease as a release agent.

    At the pattern board a rest was used to sight in at 33 yards. I put the bottom barrel at about 65/35 and the upper barrel came in at about 55/45 (note that even off the rest I used three shot patterns). I then proceeded to shoot 16's.

    My lowest score for the day was a 23 using the bottom barrel. The bottom is and Improved Modified. I posted four 25's and a few 24's. Not too bad for the third outing. The biggest problem continues to be falling to lead hard lefts and rights as my 40+ years of rifle shooting takes over when I have an aiming point. (This may not be a problem for a true shotgunner - I have only shot Trap since 2005 and I have bad habits to overcome). One BIG plus it that I can now definitely see why I am missing as the aiming point is in focus along with the bird and I know where I am pointing/aiming when I miss.

    My doubles attempt (25 pairs) was terrible. In part, I later realized I had flipped the selector to shoot the top (flatter) barrel first. HC is still poor but that is normal for me.

    Tron also shot the gun and after a miss or two getting used to it he was smoking birds. Bear in mind Tron is not a dedicated trap shooter and he was using a release trigger (he shoots pull only) and was using a gun that does not fit his little weasel face. LOL

    More range work tomorrow.

    Don Verna
     
  13. RunGunIPSC

    RunGunIPSC TS Member

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    Do try the C-More. They only weigh 3 3/8 oz. Low mass. You can screw it down to the top of your mount with only 2 screws from the top of the sight. Add 2 oz for the Railway mount that attaches to a Weaver rail if you use that. And these things take a pounding from an open race gun.
     
  14. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    Nice and thanks for the picture. I just noticed the NV (night vision) button on my 512 scope. Do you know anything about it?
     
  15. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Joe,

    The special night vision (NV) setting allows the operator to drop the brightness intensity of the holographic reticle to eliminate any "halo" effect while viewing through an image intensifier tube. Unless we go Zombie hunting at night it is a rather uselss feature for us.

    Note: I have shot the sight "under the lights" as I wanted to evaluate it night shooting as some shoot offs occur at dusk or at night. I had to reduce the brightness setting and it worked well.

    Don Verna
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    How does the sides of the Eotech window compare to the Holo Sight? Is the window frame wide like the newer Holo compared to the old model of Holo Sight? Is there any way to change the size of aperture dot that's projected on the screen? I'd think that would be a huge improvement if that option isn't available.

    Hap
     
  17. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Gene,

    There is no adjustment of the reticule on the models I investigated from EoTech or Trijicon. I limited my self to these two manufactures as they are made for military use and are likely to be the most robust. I see that IPSC has suggested the C-More. I will look into that one and contact the manufacturer. We need something that will take 10's of thousands of 12 ga recoil impulses.

    The field of view is quite good with the unit I have (512). I am looking at a Trijicon that may be better but I have not seen one up close.

    Don Verna
     
  18. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Don!! Let me know when you finish your new mount system?

    Hap
     
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