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Eliminate Shootoffs - II ???

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by bigclown, Jul 25, 2007.

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  1. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    Several great comments are on the original thread and some of the concluding comments by BigDon who makes an excellent point along with halfmile is to increase the intensity of the competition: simply change to miss and out (sudden death). This really enhances the pressure "pucker factor" - not suggesting that there isn't pressure in a trap shootoff, but there is clearly more with "miss and out." I know...I know...that is what the skeet shooters do (heaven forbid!). Having been in lots of skeet shootoffs, some of which rarely go a couple of boxes, the intensity and enjoyment of the competition is solidly there...the best shooter breaks the targets AND manages the pressure best. The trap shootoffs I have been in have been settled (about 50/50) by coin flips or splitting the pot - the shooters were tired, wanted to get home and didn't want to spend the extra time to shoot. Trap needs to consider miss and out to address the first question on the first thread...how to reduce the time, etc. of shootoffs. You can't eliminate shootoffs without hurting the competitive aspect of the game, but you can sure change the approach to enhance the competition while reducing the time and expense involved. Best Regards, Ed
     
  2. ke4yyd

    ke4yyd Member

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    The miss and out in skeet is at the more difficult doubles stations. To be more effective in trap, the miss and out would need to be at some more difficult scenario.
     
  3. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Shoot Off's should be mandatory...no coin flipping, no forfeiting, no long runs, short runs, etc., etc.

    If a person forfeits a singles and/or doubles shoot-off, then they are placed in Class AA for one year. Handicap forfeit will add 2 yds. for a year.

    This is a competitive game...treat it as such!

    Curt
     
  4. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I believe the miss and out was tried at the Grand American several years ago. It was not popular and as jcl pointed out it can be unfair. - Jim
     
  5. 89badger

    89badger TS Member

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    Ed,
    I absolutely agree with you. To jcl's comment about it not being fair, I would like to suggest this: If you broke one more target during the competition, you wouldn't be in a shoot-off. If you broke them all to get in the shoot off, no target is hard.
    Let's take the concept of "fair" one step further. How many hard lefts and rights did I break to get to the shoot off vs. the other shooters? Is it fair that I had to break, for example, 10 and the others only 4?
    Miss and Out is absolutely fair. The point of the shoot off is to determine the best shooter in that event on that day. After 100 or 200 targets, it's time to increase the challenge.
     
  6. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    YOu don't need miss and out.

    Shoot the first round from the 3 hole, the second from the 4 hole.

    The better shooter(that day) will win. With less time and target waste.

    I don't like carry over because the next day your biorhythms, physical condition, whatever. will possibly be different.

    "Yep, I ran 'em on Friday and lost the shoot on Saturday". That's just not fair. If you're going to do that make it a 3 day 400 bird event, for crying out loud.

    HM
     
  7. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    1. Set the trap to throw wider angles.

    If they still shoot a perfect 25 then ...

    2. Try a sudden death scenario, miss and your out.

    If they still shoot a perfect 25 then ...

    3. Set the trap to throw an even wider angle again and shoot a sudden death elimination.

    If they still shoot a perfect 25 then ...

    4. Timer delay and sudden death.

    If they still shoot a perfect 25 then the club determines it is a tie and they share the victory.
     
  8. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    All points are well-taken...I really expected to have to put on my flame-proof suit for this one. How 'bout to address the fairness points noted by jcl that for shootoffs to be fair to all in miss and out, the trap machine is locked to throw a straightaway right out over the set-up stake. Each shooter, then, from post one would have the same target...level playing field...the only straight-away would be at post 3 (for those skilled shooters who survived posts 1 and 2). Final thought, pro football and golf (and...er, skeet) have "sudden victory", just addressing the idea of speeding up the shootoffs. Thanks for the forceful and interesting comments...I'll put my flame gear away (but keep it handy). Best Regards, Ed
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    HM/lumper- You suggested throwing wider targets for shoot offs. How far would you move the right and left magnets to get the wider angles and how would you suggest that they get moved back to exactly the correct position after the shoot offs?

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. 1Trapshooter1

    1Trapshooter1 TS Member

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    Please explain how locking the trap on straightaways and making it sudden death will shorten any shoot off especially if the shooters had 100 or 200 straight in the event. I'm sure Leo and Harlan could hit straightaways all day long if they had to. Sorry but that just would never work

    Chris
     
  11. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Pat ... you are taking it for granted that they were in the exact correct position before the shoot off.

    You could either go as wide as the machine will throw or any degree to the left and right in-between ATA regs and all the way out. The only drawback of the idea would be the re-setting of the machine.

    I take this current topic of discussion as just a mere idea finding beginning of a thought process to a possible future change. There would be many things to both work out and many people to soothe and calm before anything ever could or would ever really happen.
     
  12. buddy123

    buddy123 Guest

    One other issue for us to consider.....
    Most of the State Shoots I have attended in the Northeast reserve the first 10 to 15 squads for non resident shooters in the championship handicap event which is the last event of the weekend.This is done to allow those with greater distances to travel to get an early start home. This then represents a group of some 50 to 75 shooters who will leave the grounds prior to the event being completed.
    Some of these people will tie for something.
    One more reason for ties to be settled on the basis of the total 400 championship targets ?? In the event that the tied shooters get to "vote" on the method of settlement, this group of 50 to 75 would have no say.The sport needs a "carved in stone" rule for these ties which is applied consistantly.

    Pete Giddings- Canada
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Pete- Your suggestion would be disadvantageous to the many shooters who do not shoot doubles. I have many times settled ties between two shooters who have both left by appointing representatives to flip a coin. On a few occasions I have had a pleasing telephone call a few days after a shoot informing me that I won something. Two years ago I left the Southern Grand and two months later read in Trap and Field that I had won a leather shooting bag. I picked up the bag nearly a year later at the Dixie Grand.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. Rich V.

    Rich V. Member

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    OK lets really be creative. Run the shoot-off like a modified game of HORSE. Except once you miss you’re out. All shoot-off contestants draw numbers to see who goes first. First shooter gets to shoot where ever he/she wants to as long as its in the shooting area (shooting area is between the 16 and 27 yard line and station 1 and station 5 boundaries). If the shooter makes the shot the following shooter needs the make it as well and so on until someone misses (that person is then eliminated). The next shooter after the eliminated one gets to pick a different (or the same) location to start the process again. If you are the shooter establishing a position and miss you are not eliminated. You can't be eliminatd until a shot has been established. That would surely make a shoot-off fun to watch and participate in.

    Rich V…
     
  15. buddy123

    buddy123 Guest

    Pat,
    I appreciate that settling ties based on the 400 target total is a problem with respect to non doubles shooters.I still think that we as ATA, need to come up with a tie settling solution which does not involve shootoffs or flips.Shootoffs may no longer be the best solution when we consider how long it takes to complete a 400 target weekend with several hundred shooters in attendance and when we consider how far many must travel to participate. What do you think?

    Pete Giddings- Canada
     
  16. hubcap

    hubcap TS Member

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    If the shoot-off targets are different than the targets you were shooting for score then the shoot-off would have nothing to do with the event.

    If you are going to see who is best on singles on any given day you need to shoot-off the same targets you shot for score. Same for handicap or doubles.

    Changing the targets for shoot-offs would be similar to having a tie in the javelin throw and then to break the tie see who could throw the shotput the farthest.


    IMO

    hubcap
     
  17. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. You would still be throwing a javelin, but maybe a shorter or heavier one.

    HM
     
  18. buzzgun

    buzzgun Member

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    One thing you might consider - since we seem to have tactily accepted that pullers will be quickly acquired and hastily educated (if at all) about the rules of the sport:

    In a shootoff, with tons of people plus some officials watching, you have a better idea that the best shooter won...not simply the one who got the most gimme's from the 14 year-old puller out on Bank #57.

    But if the day ends with one lone score at the top...you never know. Did that guy really shoot a 99? Or did he simply shoot the same 97 as everyone else, but got a couple gimme's from the little girl on Bank #57 who was working her first shoot and didn't realize that a dusted target should have been "lost?" If that guy's shooting with his buddies, don't assume that girl is going to get corrected ("Hey, I didn't see it - I was paying attention to my own targets").
     
  19. saluki68

    saluki68 TS Member

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    Shoot-offs in singles & doubles have already been mostly eliminated at big shoots (states, sat grands & the grand, etc) with carryovers mandated by program except for the championship events.
     
  20. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    I think the best suggestion so far is a sudden death type of shoot off.

    If ya miss and your opponent(s) don't then your out and on your way home.
     
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