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Effect of increased muzzle velocity

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Ted K., Feb 9, 2012.

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  1. Ted K.

    Ted K. Member

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    A thread was recently started suggesting that there was no significant difference between 1130 fps and 1235 fps loads when shot from 16 yards, and most people seemed to agree with that. But it seemed to me that the wrong question was addressed.

    To me, the question is whether going to the faster loads compensates for moving back from the 16 yard line. Obviously, the answer depend on how far back, but again, to me, the leads necessary to hit a target at 23 yards with a 1200 fps load seem almost the same as the leads I need at 16 yards with 1135 fps loads. But (continuing in this vein), the leads necessary for me to hit a target at 25-27 yards using 1235 fps ammo (I'm thinking of Nitro 27's with 1 1/8th oz. of lead) seem greater than what I use at 16 yards with 1135 fps ammo.

    What is the experience of other shooters? Or the calculations? I'd be very interested to know.

    Ted K.
     
  2. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    You raise a good question, but it is Feet Per Second (fps) not Feet Per Mintue (fpm).
     
  3. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Shoot Rem-Lites from the 25 and you wilkl instantly perceive the difference.

    HM
     
  4. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    I was at the Southern Grand in the 80's when Ray Stafford got beat up badly with his Federal X-Lites. As the late Frank Little then said, they may work elsewhere but not here!!
     
  5. Twinbirds

    Twinbirds TS Member

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    more recoil is one
     
  6. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Ted,

    I think what you are asking is this: "How fast do my handicap loads have to be to reach the target in the same amount of time my singles loads reach the target?"

    The problem is, the same lead at 16 yards looks a lot different at 27 yards.

    That point notwithstanding, I think the answer is going to be, a lot faster than ATA allows.
     
  7. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    OK, looking at AverageEd's table, if we assume you are shooting 1145 fps number 8's for singles, and you break your targets 30 yards from your muzzle, which is not impossible for a quick shooter, the time from muzzle to target is 0.102 seconds.

    If we assume you are a 26 yard handicap shooter, and you shoot your handicap targets with the same timing as you shoot your singles targets, it stands to reason you will take your target at about 40 yards from your muzzle.

    Are you with me so far?

    OK, so you would have to find a load that has a 'muzzle to 40 yard' time of 0.102 seconds.

    Even the 1290 fps 7-1/2 loads on that chart are not even close to that.

    So you'd either have to use much, much slower shells at 16 yards, or use painfully fast loads at handicap to achieve your goal.
     
  8. ou.3200

    ou.3200 Well-Known Member

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    This is what Coach Linn suggested in his book "Finding the Extra Target":

    16 yards - 1 1/8oz 2 3/4 dr8s

    Handicap to and including 20 yards - same as 16 yard load

    21 to 23 yards - 1 1/8oz 3dr 8s

    24 and 25 yards 1 1/8oz 2 3/4dr 7 1/2 shot.

    26 and 27 yards 1 1/8oz 3dr 7 1/2

    Pretty simple.
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    You guys have it all wrong, you shoot one speed of shell and learn how to shoot it, 8s for 16s amd 7 1/2s for handicap beyond 25 yards is my theory.

    I was broken in w/1200 fps shells and now 43 years later I still shoot the 1200fps shells the best.

    70 years old at one of the last Las Vegas shoots in preliminary Hdcp.

    Won Sr.Vet Trophy lost championship in shootoff.

    If you shoot one speed of shell all the time you learn to shoot it.
    Of course you can shoot 1145fps on 16s if you want to.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  10. Ted K.

    Ted K. Member

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    Timb99 -

    That may explain why I don't see much difference at 22 yards if I use 1200 fps loads, but I do see a different at 25 yards, even if I use Nitros. Thanks.

    Ted K.
     
  11. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    I shoot 1250 fps shells at everything but Bunker. One ounce at Skeet, Sporting, 16's and Dubs. 1 1/8 oz at caps. 24 grams at 1350 on the Bunker field. Works for me.

    My 32" Baby Bore 20 shoots 22.5 grams at 1250 for Sporting, Skeet, and the occasional Trap 16's I may shoot with it. The little gun does well on Trap Dubs, too, with IMOD/XF chokes.
     
  12. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    For once I can agree with Longshot. One speed is really all you need and to keep it "pretty simple": 16-27yds, 1 1/8oz 2 3/4 dr8s will break them all.
     
  13. Ted K.

    Ted K. Member

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    Flincher -

    Your reasoning sound persuasive to me, but it brings up another question. Given your logic, what's the advantage to shooting 8's anywhere? (FWIW, I shoot 7 1/2's at all distances.)

    Ted K.
     
  14. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    The advantage of shooting 8s is more pellets in the pattern and a definite increase in the 'Sure Kill" area.
     
  15. rsikole

    rsikole Member

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    One more thing to muddy up the waters on all of this painful analysis:

    The greater the muzzle velocity of shot, the greater the rate of deceleration of that shot. This means that if there is a 50 fps difference in muzzle velocity for identical size shot (for example 1150 fps vs 1200 fps), then at 40 yards there will be less than a 50 fps difference in speed because the shot with the faster initial muzzle velocity will have slowed down at faster rate than the slower shot.

    This is true regardless of altitude, but will be more evident at lower altitude.

    Also, regardless of altitude, the smaller the shot, the faster the rate of deceleration of that shot (for example #8 shot slows down at a faster rate than #7 1/2 regardless of altitude or muzzle velocity, assuming they both start out at the same muzzle velocity).

    Just more food for thought.....

    Rob
     
  16. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    And don't forget about buffeting. On the way to the target when the shot slows down it will pass through the sound barrier. This will have an impact on the shot pattern, causing an increase in size and fliers. HMB
     
  17. shaggist

    shaggist Member

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    Don't forget that the Kinetic Energy of each pellet, and therefore the entire shot string, is determined by the formula E=1/2 Mass X the velocity squared (E=1/2 MV2). The higher the kinetic energy of the shot, the more impact it will have when hitting the target, and the more likely the target will break when impacted by 1 pellet.

    If the shot leaves the barrel at a higher velocity, it will impact the target quicker and with more power than shot traveling at a lower initial velocity. Shot of the same size will decelerate at the same rate no matter what the initial velocity.

    Therefore, shot exiting the barrel at a higher muzzle velocity will impact the target quicker with more force, due to its greater initial velocity. Simple physics.

    Jack
     
  18. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    More energetic pellet strikes lead to a higher likelihood that the clay will break. For the range of muzzle velocities typically used in shotguns, the differences aren't huge, but they must be present. The graphs below show how the scores will change for two different muzzle velocities for a given skill level of shooter. The underlying data comes from my measurements of how much energy it takes to break a clay pigeon.

    The different traces on each graph are just different ways of interpreting how much energy is needed to break a clay, but from graph to graph, the higher muzzle velocity case shows a 1% to 4% improvement. So, subject to recoil, higher MVs are the way to go.

    Lower muzzle velocity case:

    <image src="http://www.shotgun-insight.com/publicBookPics/Figure177.jpg">

    Higher muzzle velocity case . . .

    <image src="http://www.shotgun-insight.com/publicBookPics/fig176Cropmmm.png".

    Andrew.
     
  19. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    You guys are wasting your time with this muzzle velocity thing. I'm switching over to depleted uranium shot. Increased pellet weight equals more impact energy at the same velocity. Now I will be able to shoot sub sonic shells with low recoil and no pattern disruption do to breaking the sound barrier. HMB
     
  20. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    rsikole,

    Although what you say is true, and is often repeated by many people on this forum, it is still meaningless.

    All things equal, the pellets from the shell with the higher muzzle velocity will always reach the target sooner, and with higher energy, than the pellets from the shell with the lower muzzle velocity.

    The difference may be completely insignificant, mind you. But they'll get there sooner.
     
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