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Earned Yardage Table

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Hauser, Jul 4, 2010.

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  1. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    There have been a lot of discussions on this thread regarding rule changes. There is one rule that could be changed that would stem the flow of shooters to the 27 yard line and that is Section VI “D” titled Earned Yardage.


    This includes the 'Earned Yardage Table” section “D 1” details how many yards will be awarded for a given handicap and is based on the number of shooters participating.


    In my opinion this section of the rule is fine. It awards yardage for wins and ties only and is based on the number of shooters participating.


    Sections D2 , D5, and D7 which reads as follows need to be eliminated.


    D2 Any score of 96 will automatically earn 1/2 yard provided it does not earn at least that much under the earned yardage table.


    D5 Any score of 97, 98 and 99 or winning a total of $750.00 or more (option and added money) in a single handicap event will automatically earn 1 yard, and a score of 100 or winning a total of $1,200.00 or more (option and added money) in a single handicap event will automatically earn 1-1/2 yards provided these scores do not earn at least that much under the earned yardage table.


    These sections are the automatic punch provisions of the earned yardage table which have been in the rulebook for at least 35+ years. Prior to the change to the “two hole target” these two sections seemed to work as intended i.e. awarded yardage to then what was considered a “good score”.


    As bad as the change to the “two hole target” was the failure to modify or eliminate these provisions was much worst. The BOD and the delegates that voted for the change to the “two hole target” in 1996 obviously did not take the time to review the consequences, let alone the unintended consequences of the change, even though the change was clearly going to result in higher scores and the wholesale movement to the 27 yard line.


    Easier targets = higher scores = more yards being awarded.


    Additionally section D7 should be eliminated simply because it's poorly written and applies to a tiny minority of the shoots held each year.


    D7. When multiple Handicap events are shot during the same day with
    fewer than 15 contestants, yardage will be awarded the high score(s),
    under the earned yardage table, by combining the total number of
    different individual shooters in all events with fewer than 15 shooters.



    For example;



    Event 1 - 14 shooters, Event 2 - 20 shooters, Event 3 - 12 shooters (3
    of whom shot Event 1), Event 4 - 13 shooters (5 of whom shot Event1
    and/or Event 3). Event 2 stands on it’s own because it has more than 15
    shooters. Combining Events 1, 3, 4 total of 31 different shooters (14, 9,
    8).


    The high score among those 31 shooters will receive a 1?2 yard punch

    based on the earned yardage table.



    My suggestion is to contact your delegate and request this rule be modified.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  2. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Jerry

    Yardage given for a 96 in handicap, especially at large shoots, is ridicules to start with, and 89 or around that is just as ridicules as the break point to get a reduction. Our handicap system could not be set up any better for the sandbagger...it is perfect and many take advantage of it. For the honest shooter, it is as bad as it gets for a set of rules to go by.

    Mark Rounds
     
  3. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    No system is perfect, some systems are even less perfect than others ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  4. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    PITA seems to work nicely without the automatic punch for a 96.
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jerry- The yardage table is reviewed almost every year by the CHC. That group has all of the handicap data available when it does review the yardage table.

    Mark- The reduction point of 89% does include over 95% of the shooters. They are eligible for a reduction if they have not earned yardage and are not coded.

    Changes in the earned yardage must be viewed from two perspectives. A great many shooters believe a punch is a great honor and something very desirable. Another group believes it is a great penalty.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    If you are on your way back it's a reward. If you have hit the distance that tests your ability then the next punch is a HANDICAP! If you are at the 27 and still winning on a regular basis then you have not yet reached the distance that tests your ability. Under the current system they will never get there except by old age or poor health. JRM
     
  7. Scoutman 06

    Scoutman 06 Member

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    Pat, Assuming I read your comment to Mark correctly, 95% of registered handicap shooters are carrying an average below 89%?! I see plenty of low scores from time to time, my own included, but didn't realize it was quite like this. John
     
  8. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    Pat

    How can 95% of trap shooters be under the reduction number? Wouldn't that put 95% of trap shooters on the 18 yard line? My point was the honest shooter will end up on yard line where their average is above the 89 with no chance of reduction and below any kind of winning scores....thus stuck forever.

    For a sandbagger 89 has no meaning other than that is the score to shoot under. It could be 69 for all they care. They will shoot whatever it takes to be under the reduction number.

    Mark Rounds
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Hauser

    "There is one rule that could be changed that would stem the flow of shooters to the 27 yard line"

    Jerry just some food for thought what you are proposing would "stem the flow of shooters to the 27 yard line" The question in my mind is what will it do to the shooters that are getting reductions below the twenty yard line you are now going to take away one of the tools that the short yardage shooter has of getting him moving in the right direction. I am not sure what impact that will have on those that are struggling to acquire yardage now.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Mark- A shooter with an average less than 89 will not get a reduction if he earns a punch. Also, about one half of the reductions offered are refused.
    A quick scan of the average book clearly shows that in almost every state a handicap average of 90-91 will earn a spot on the list of high handicap averages for that state. PA has many great shooters. In the 2008 average book an average of 90 on handicap earned a spot on the list of top handicap averages for the state. In Utah, an average of 92 was required to earn a spot on the top handicap shooters list for the state.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Rick Barker,

    The flaw I see in your proposed system is some of us do not shoot singles, then what happens and what yardage would those shooters shoot from ..? WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  12. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    The automatic provision of the earned yardage table (sections D 2 and D 5) was intended (I think) to ensure what were perceived as “good scores” at that time, were awarded yardage for those scores regardless of whether those scores produced a win or tie. Fair enough. Those provisions, with the exception of added stipulation for awarding yardage for money, have been in place since the late 60s.


    By default the automatic provision of the earned yardage table was based on the target presentation defined by the ATA at that time, which was a minimum 44 degree included angle target that was thrown 48 to 52 yards in still air.


    When the change was made to an easier target presentation it made the intent of the automatic provision of the earned yardage table moot.



    Simply stated what was a “good score” based on a tougher target presentation was no longer a “good score” when that target presentation is made easier.


    Because the provision wasn't changed more shooters received more yardage than they would have before the change.


    I'm sure either Neil or Pat will explain why having more shooters receiving more yardage is good for the sport, but I believe it is the principle reason the handicap system is in disarray and is partially responsible for the drop in membership.



    Jerry Hauser
     
  13. frostyman

    frostyman Well-Known Member

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    One thing that always made me mad was it never seemed to fail that I would get a yardage reduction in the mail about a week or two after earning a 1/2 yard somewhere. My average definitely allows for me to get a reduction but I can't use it because of the earned yardage. Sometimes the scores don't even get to the ATA for several weeks. You might even get a punch for a very low score because there were 15 people or more and it was a bad day and you happened to shoot better than the other people.
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Once those decent beginning shooters do happen to advance to the max yardage as mentioned by Frostyman, regardless of scores to get there, they are coded for life. Unless a special request is made by that shooter and granted by the CHC, they are never to be reduced to less than the 24 yard line.

    I happen to agree with Jerry Hauser, our illustrious leadership passed this cheating way to high scores as well as other never thought of or considered consequences also. They couldn't see the historical data they claim they want today at that time either, that must not have mattered much then? Why do they ask for every nook and cranny detail (data) today to right their wrongs? All this in order to validate a cheating practice which began with one mans idea of garnering an advantage through cheating the system in the first place!! Shame on you guys responsible for this mess in changing our trap shooting history! I wish no ill will toward those responsible except for the fleas of a thousand camels invading your crotches!

    Hap
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Well said Hap. HMB
     
  16. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Ar least the guys on the West Coast have PITA. We in the East are stuck with the ATA or nothing. JRM
     
  17. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Has anyone ever started a petition for a rule change to the ATA? If so, were they successful? Is a petition mentioned in the charter or rules?
     
  18. TRAINWRECK

    TRAINWRECK TS Member

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    What I dont understand is when a rule is changes and turns out to be a mistake why leave it in place? One rule that comes to mind is the money punch. As I understand it this punch was a cure for some of the sandbagging. A person gets punched based on how lucky they are with option money not ability. The only thing I can tell this rule has done is stopped most people from playing the options. I will bet thet even the big dogs in the sport would like to see this one removed.
     
  19. markdenis

    markdenis TS Member

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    The 50 option alone has been virtually destroyed by the new money rule. There are some rare exceptions where a 50 pays a little bit, but nothing like it used to be.

    Mark
     
  20. TRAINWRECK

    TRAINWRECK TS Member

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    I agree the 50's, 25's, and the great eastern have in my op has been hit the hardest.
     
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