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Drop at heel questions

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Shooter R, Mar 8, 2011.

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  1. Shooter R

    Shooter R Active Member

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    Taller shooters, or those with longer necks, would probably benefit with more drop at the heel. I know I do. I also prefer a high rib gun like a Perazzi MX2005.

    I had an MX15, but even with an adjustable pad, when I mounted the gun I was always looking through the very top of my Decot's.
     
  2. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    The drop can have some effect on felt recoil. Remember the drop on a high rib gun may not really be that great when you compare measurements with the center line of the bore. Pitch can some times negate the effects of exaggerated drop.
    Joe
     
  3. wlc

    wlc Member

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    I have a long, not very flexible neck and use guns with 3-1/2" to 3-3/4" DAH. I feel that the lower the barrel relative to the pad, the less recoil I feel to my face. A low rib, top single with that much drop bumps me worse than a bottom single. I would like to try a high rib, bottom single with the correct DAH but when you add a long stock to the combination, there are not a lot of guns set up like that to try
     
  4. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    This is a dimension I've been playing with. At first I thought the DAH wouldn't affect POI, but I've learned different.

    Most people use their cheekbone as the anchor point. If you do, you must consider that your cheek bone is not straight. So, as you move the pad down, your head will essentially roll back on the comb as your head becomes more erect. This will have the effect of raising your POI. Move the pad up, and your head will roll forward effectively lowering the POI.

    Here's a crude picture I made to discuss this point:
    [​IMG]


    "A" represents the ratio of pad to comb. The curved line is your cheekbone. The oval is your eye. Since the distance between your eye and cheekbone is fixed, you can see how rolling your head forward will lower your eye. Reducing "A" will cause you to roll your head forward as you try to get your cheekbone on the stock.

    I'm not sure I'm explaining this clearly, but I know it works this way.
     
  5. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    Rastoff's explanation is right on point. Many of the guns that look like they have a lot of drop at the heel really don't, it's just that the comb is so much higher. Some shooters like the heads up position -Harlan Campbell is one.
    Some don't and lean more into the stock -Leo Harrison.
     
  6. Michael Gregory

    Michael Gregory Member

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    Rastoff, Yes, you explained it very well, and very clearly, and that is exactly correct. Great illustration! It is something we often forget when going to a more heads up position, or a less heads up position.
    NSXER: Regarding face recoil, the unsingle will definately have less recoil than the top single, simply by the fact that the unsingle barrel will be closer to being in line with the recoil pad. I could illustrate it better with a diagram using force vectors (something I learned in physics), but we'd have to be in the same location, as I lack the skills to do it over the computer. Mike
     
  7. Citori Shooter

    Citori Shooter TS Member

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    Interesting thread, Is there an optimum DAH for say a 5'11" shooter? Or, is DAH best determined by trail and error? I would expect that there would be a point where to much DAH will be excessive irrespective of where my eye is looking through my glasses.
     
  8. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    If this is who I am thinking about Rollin Oswald is extremely knowledgeable when it comes to stock fitting. I believe back in the early 2000's maybe sometime in 2003? Rollin offered a small book here on TS.com on how to fit your gun. I believe he still offers that book, but it might be a bit more extensive. I noticed he is a member here maybe he might post up.

    Bryan
     
  9. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    Force vectors, angular momentum, moment of inertia, mass, length of lever arm, pivot point, and such are all things used to calculate the reaction of the gun when fired.

    Steve, I know you know this already, but I feel it's important to point out that recoil is constant. You cannot change recoil by altering the configuration of the gun. What you can change is perceived recoil. That is another story altogether.

    So, will altering the Drop at Heel change the perceived recoil? The answer is yes. The remaining question is, how much?

    Here is another crude drawing:

    [​IMG]


    Look at Figure 1. The red line is the shotgun, the black curved line is your shoulder. "A" is the recoil of the shot, and "B" represents your shoulder pushing back against the pad. "C" represents the movement of the muzzle. The greater the distance between A and B, the larger the C movement will be.

    In Figure 2 A has been brought much closer to B and therefore, C is considerably reduced.

    The larger C is, the more the stock will move into your face. Thus, you will perceive more recoil in your cheek. Therefore, an unsingle will offer less perceived recoil because the recoil is more in line with your shoulder, which will cause the muzzle to rise less, thereby transferring less recoil into your cheekbone.

    Did that make sense? It does to me, but the inside of my head can be scary at times.
     
  10. Michael Gregory

    Michael Gregory Member

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    Citori Shooter: You asked "Is there an optimum DAH for say a 5'11" shooter?" I wouldn't think so. For instance, picture two (admittedly goofy looking) 5'11" shooters, one whom is long through the trunk, with a fairly short neck, and one whom is short through the trunk, with a pretty long neck. I would think that the DAH would be substantially different for the two, even though they are both the same height. Also, one might like to "get in to the gun" more, while the other might like to shoot in a relatively heads up position.

    NSXER: I have a feeling that DAH may often become more of an issue for those of us that are taller, with longer necks, as we, vs the average height shooter, often find ourselves uncomfortably craining our heads down to the top of a gun, and need more DAH to be comfortable (I am 6'2"). I agree with you also, that it is probably mostly a matter of trial and error. Also, interesting that you could not feel the difference between the top single BBL, and the unsingle. As I said previously, the unsingle should have less face recoll, but it's all quite theoretical, your milage may vary. This is why I love discussions like this, I always learn something. Mike
     
  11. Michael Gregory

    Michael Gregory Member

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    Rastoff: +1... exactly! Great drawing, how did you do that?? LOL Mike
     
  12. BILL GRILL

    BILL GRILL Well-Known Member

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    You guys had pitch in the question but not in the equation?
     
  13. Michael Gregory

    Michael Gregory Member

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    Oh Noooo.... here we go. Thanks for bringing that up Bill!!! LOL
    Seriously, yes, you are correct, and NSXER (Steve) did originally ask " Does more down pitch need to become part of the equation?"
    My answer would be, perhaps, but equally possible is that less pitchdown may be part of the equation. There is an often unrecognized fact that too much pitch can also cause cheek slap!!! More pitch is not always the answer. Mike
     
  14. goose2

    goose2 Well-Known Member

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    There was a thread on here today asking "do trap shooters tend to over think things"
    This could be the answer wright here before are eyes. LOL
     
  15. Michael Gregory

    Michael Gregory Member

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    Overthink things, hmmm.... naaaaa! LOL
     
  16. Michael Gregory

    Michael Gregory Member

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    Actually Steve, I have routinely seen 6 to 6 1/2 degrees of pitch from the factory, which in my opinion is quite a bit. Most trap guns don't come with more than 3 to 3 1/2 degrees from the factory. Calculation, just for the over-analysis part of this thread: If I assume 1/4" thick at the top of the spacer, and 1/32" at the bottom of the spacer, and a recoil pad which is 5 1/4" long, you have added about 2.39 degrees of pitch to your stock, which is not at all heavy or unreasonable. A fairly average pitch for trap shooting. BTW.. all of this assumes that your comb is parallel with your rib, otherwise you may have more actual pitch. Mike
     
  17. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Bryan: Thank you for the plug for my book. It is 235 pages.
    Steve,

    The drop at the heel dimension describes the distance between the rib and the heel (top of the butt/recoil pad). A stock's drop at the heel is directly related to barrel rise but it does NOT necessarily suggest the amount of barrel rise a gun will have.

    Barrel rise occurs because the butt is below the axis of the bore. A portion of the butt serves as a pivot point during barrel rise. The closer that point is to the level of the bore, the less will be the barrel rise. This explains why cheek slap often occurs when the pitch on a stock is wrong and the gun pivots on the lower toe rather than the upper heel. (There are other cause but pitch is a common one.)

    High ribbed guns have reduced barrel rise because their stocks do not slant down as much as those on conventional guns. High rib stocks can be straighter because the butt needs to be higher (nearer the level of the bore axis) to compensate for the higher rib. They still have a drop at the heel dimension but it does not suggest the amount of barrel rise as it does on top single and conventional over & under stocks.

    Barrel rise could be eliminated entirely if shotgun stocks could be designed with the butt directly in line with the bore as they are on modern assault rifles. These rifles would be difficult to shoot accurately if, as soon as they were fired on full automatic, the muzzle began to rise.

    Rollin
     
  18. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    The wrong pitch will exacerbate muzzle rise and perceived recoil.

    The goal is to have a pad that evenly contacts your shoulder as you mount. You don't want the toe or heel to hit the shoulder first.

    This affects all other stock dimensions as well.
     
  19. Citori Shooter

    Citori Shooter TS Member

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    So, Let's say I have a Citori with a Monte Carlo stock that has 2" of factory drop and I add an adjustable pad plate that can drop the DAH another 1.5" to achieve a more heads up position on the stock,won't it also require changing the LOP? Or perhaps it would be better to add an add on rib and higher comb ala Mx2005 style to avoid changing the recoil vectors? Yes, I like to over think things!
     
  20. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Citori Shooter,

    If you lower the pad so you can shoot with your head and neck more erect, chances are you will want to shorten the LOP. This is because before lowering the pad, you had to tilt your neck and head forward to put your cheek on the comb. With the pad lowered, you do not.

    The same is true if, instead of mounting a gun below the collarbone, you mount it higher, on the collarbone to shoot with a more upright posture, you will also need a shorter stock.

    Rollin
     
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