1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Dram/Velocity Question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ClaySmoke, Aug 26, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ClaySmoke

    ClaySmoke Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    454
    I was recently reading a book written by A.H. Bogardus entitled Field, Cover, and Trap Shooting, and ran across a statement that I would like someone to clarify for me. In the wing shooting chapter, Bogardus discusses an injury he received in his thigh from a loaded shotgun. In this discussion he states that, "The gun was loaded with five drams of powder and an ounce of No. 6 shot." My question is this; what would be the approximate velocity with this load? Obviously he was loading with black powder, as that was the only option available at the time. I know the general rule, according to SAAMI standards, was that three drams of black powder and an ounce and an eighth of shot would yield around 1200 fps. I wasn't sure as to how to extrapolate the above load into an approximate velocity. Thanks. Garrett
     
  2. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,411
    Sounds like an overload to me. That's 137.5 grains of powder. Velocity ??? HMB
     
  3. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    15,642
    Location:
    Green Bay Wisconsin
    In my mind it is unlikely that there could be much more than 1300 FPS with an ounce of shot.

    I also believe there would be one heck of a lot of unburned powder in such an instance.

    The second statement is the reason for the first statement.

    HM
     
  4. Old Doc

    Old Doc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    204
    They weren't too fussy. My father told me of his father loading his all brass 10 ga. shells. 50 would be in a board in a double line. My grandfather would then dip his hand into the black powder and go down the lines dumping it in. Excess went back into the container. I have the shotgun. One hammer is missing and its quite loose. Hasn't been cleaned in probably 90 years. D Winter
     
  5. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,002
    Black powder is an explosive, it detonates, and it's energy is exponential by it's weight not necessarily pressure because it is instantaneous. Smokeless powder deflagrates and has specific burn rates under pressure. The only way to figure out the velocity of one ounce of shot, and five drams of black powder, would be to find out he exact composition of the powder and have it tested.

    Wayne
     
  6. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,623
    Location:
    HI
    Anybody got Lyman's 4th edition handy, you could see what the average change of f/s for each 1/4 dram. Then look at the fastest and add on.

    I am sure it will be faster than 1300 f/s since 2 3/4 Dram with 1 oz is 1190-1200 f/s. With 1 1/8 oz of shot 2 3/4 Dram is 1145 f/s; 3 Dram is 1200 f/s so the velocity increases by 55 f/s per 1/4 Dram. 5 Drams is 8 quarters more than 3 Drams, 55 f/s x 8 = 440 f/s + 1200 f/s = 1640 f/s.

    Jason
     
  7. ClaySmoke

    ClaySmoke Member

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2007
    Messages:
    454
    Thanks for all the replies. I was more curious than anything. I originally thought like Waverider, in that I thought it would be up around 1500-1600 fps. The more I think about, however, I wonder just have much would have been utilized, and how much would have been blown out the end of the barrel. Either way, I agree that this sounds like it we be dangerously overloaded. My curiousity still would like to know an approximate velocity based on old loading charts... Garrett
     
  8. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,623
    Location:
    HI
    From Lyman's 4th Ed, Approximate Dram Equivalent Rating.

    12 ga. 4 Dram Eq. 1455 f/s; 4 1/2 Dram Eq. 1510 f/s

    So 5 Dram velocity should be about 1565 f/s.

    Black powder is actually an explosive so all of it will explode, I don't think there will be any unburned powder like modern powder which is a propellant that burns at a rapid rate and if confined explodes.

    Jason
     
  9. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    1,781
    There must not be many black-powder shooters on TS.com ...

    I've loaded BP in shells and open bore for a while, but never BP cartridge, so I know a little abt it.

    BP is an explosive, yus, but not a highly efficient one ... a LOT of unburned powder goes out the barrel and beyond a certain point, more powder = more mess.

    In 8, 10 & 12ga, I have tried to overload shells to get the speed up, but in truth, the more you stuff in, the more of the powder goes to flash and noise and out the barrel w/o much increase in speed.

    My 'goose load' in my 8bore is 7½dr of Swiss #1½ & 1-5/8oz of Bismuth. In a 12lb gun, it kicks a little, but 1300fps is about all I can get it to go, and I have shot up to 200+gr. Crimps on brass shells are part of the inefficiency, too.

    I have an 8ga caplock muzzloader double-gun, and max velocity on it is 1200, unless you go real light, like less than 1¼oz

    Bogardus was a character, tho, wasn't he?

    Bob
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.