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Dram Restrictions

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by clayguy, Aug 15, 2007.

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  1. clayguy

    clayguy TS Member

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    I just purchased several cases of on-sale Winchester shells, 12 ga., 3-1/4 dram, 1 oz., #7-1/2 shot size. Our gun club has a restriction of 3 grams max on shotshells. Their claim is that the 3-1/4 dram shells will carry farther than 3 dram shells. Due to the fact that several members have purchased cases of 3-1/4 drams shells and the fact that they are the variety frequently on-sale, I would like to be able to document a case for 3-1/4 dram shell usage. Does anybody have knowledge of range difference BTWN 3 and 3-1/4 dram shells in like shot size? Is this restriction dictated by ATA rules? Bill Hoeft
     
  2. Texas Ton

    Texas Ton TS Member

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    GEEEEESH, I guess you just can't fix stupid.

    Where is this club, do they throw ATA targets? Do they have an ATA rule book?

    Velocity restrictions from ATA, or the last time I saw a rule book.

    1 1/8 oz is 1290 fps
    1 oz is 1325 fps
    7/8 oz is 1350 fps

    A 3 1/4 dram 1 ounce load is supposed to be 1290 fps, though not many really are-------and a few are over it a bit.

    So the reference as to drams is outdated, there are a few guys that still think max traploads are 3 drams, 1 1/8. True about the weight, but more important is shot size.
     
  3. revsublime

    revsublime TS Member

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    in PITA you cannot use a 3-1/4 dram load. As far as my club...only restriction in no magnum loads.
     
  4. clayguy

    clayguy TS Member

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    Thanks for the input. The shells are Winchester Super X Game Loads with no indication of velocity on individual box or case. Beyond that, these are practice shells only, not for reg shoots. Nonetheless, the Club sees this as a violation of a restriction initiated many years ago. I suspect this came about long ago in an effort to fall comfortably within ATA rules as Texas Ton stated.
     
  5. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    I don't have my Lyman 4th edition now. But a 1 oz load of 7 1/2 shot at 3 1/4 Dram Equivalent (DE) will travel further than one at 3 DE.

    If your club has a shot fall zone of less than 300 yards then there is a practical reason for limiting the the speed and shot size of loads. They should actually be limiting the speed rather than using DE. This is because a 3 DE load of 1 oz is going about as fast as a 3 1/4 DE load of 1 1/8 oz shot.

    If your club allows the 1 oz Winchester or Remington "Handicap" loads your case is made.

    Jason
     
  6. Jim Brown (the puller)

    Jim Brown (the puller) TS Member

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    The REMINGTON dove loads that are ONE OUNCE and listed as 3 1/4 dram equivalent are also listed with a velocity of 1290 fps. They are legal for ATA shooting (I have used them for doubles) and the velocity is equal to the maximum velocity of 3 dram equivalent 1 1/8 ounce loads.

    I once wrote to Vandalia after being told that reducing my shot load from 1 1/8 ounce to 1 ounce without reducing the powder charge was resulting in an illegally fast load. The General Manager of the ATA told me that I was within the rules.

    In the phrasing of the old rule, the question becomes "HOW FAST DOES ONE OUNCE OF LEAD IN FRONT OF THREE DRAMS OF BLACK POWDER MOVE?"
     
  7. Harold

    Harold TS Member

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    According to the Lyman manual a 1 oz, 3 dram equivalent load goes about 1235 fps and a 3 1/4 dram equivalent load is about 1290. The maximum range of a 7 1/2 shot with muzzle velocity of 1350 fps is 247 yards, 1275 fps is 244 yard, and 1200 fps is 237 yards. Interpolating those numbers would give you about a 4 yard difference between the maximum range of the 3 de and the 3 1/4 de loads.
     
  8. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    It's very common to see that old rule posted at many gun clubs: 3-DR; 1-1/8 oz 7-1/2 shot max because not too long ago, maybe as recently as ten years ago, that WAS the ATA rule.

    When I began trapshooting in 1980 there were two loads: "light" was a nominal 1,145 fps (2-3/4 dr)with 8 or 7-1/2 shot and "heavy" was a nominal 1,200 fps (3-dr)with 7-1/2 or 8 shot. And there was one shot charge weight 1-1/8th

    Federal Paper Handicap was always a little "hotter" than the 3-dr loads and it was the "rumor" that is was the bees knees for long yardage caps

    The 1-oz started coming out in 1981-1982

    In a 10-mph tailwind, you can add 10% overtravel distance to the max range of any pellet. Rule of thumb: 7.5 shot = 750 ft*, or about 250 yards regardless of how many drams of powder are pushing the payload

    * From the NRA Firearms Fact Book

    The reason why the clubs have these old signs is because it is nearly impossible to police uninformed shooters showing up with high base field loads
    with # 6 or #4 or larger shot and then causing a real overtravel and safety issue jeopardizing the club's existance. The fact is, you can have a 3-3/4 dram equivalent 1-1/4 oz load of #7-1/2 shot and it is still going to travel no further than the lightest useable load with the same shot size.

    Similarly, a careless shooter can show up with 2.5 dram 1-oz reloads filled with #6 shot and travel another 200 feet - often beyond the safety zones of shot fall range for many clubs, especially in the crowded northeastern corridor where I live.

    "HANDICAP" trap shells do not "exceed" the old 3-dram rule for safety and overtravel purposes. Technically speaking the "Handicap" loads are a smidgeon over 3-dram, but the point is moot.

    The reason your club banned the field loads even at 3-1/4 dram is because it's too easy for someone to show up with a similarly charged box of shells with 6's and then it's a different story, and they can't watch everyone, all the time. They're being safe rather than sorry.

    The bright side, is, you'll find the lighter target dedicated shells pattern better and often have higher quality shot than the cheap field loads, anyway.

    After my first few pheasant hunts, I realized I needed nothing more than 3-dr 7-1/2s with high quality shot - my trap reloads - knocked ringnecks out of the sky better than loud, booming field loads with crappy pellets, that were irregular shaped, soft and with flat spots and crappy wads that peeled and blew plastic shards all over the grounds.
     
  9. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    For what it's worth, there are two local clubs I belong to in CT with serious SKEET restrictions.

    Seymour Fish & Game in Oxford, CT has a #9 shot mandatory rule for skeet since even the 8s it was found will sometimes reach a neighbor's backyard swimming pool (that wasn't there years ago) along with skeet restricted to the further of the two, combo fields the club maintains.

    Ansonia Rod & Gun has a LIGHT 8 or LIGHT 9 only rule for skeet and station 8 had to be remarked and offset so that shot fall would not reach the adjacent neighbor's driveway - that wasn't there ten years ago - the bordering property was a deactivated Nike missile site until the mid 1990s

    Neither club has restrictions on trap other than the old "3-dr" 7-1/2 but handicap trap loads are considered to be compliant with this ruling at both clubs
     
  10. Steve-CT

    Steve-CT TS Member

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    And here's another point.......

    Those cheap field loads, often have more than a few larger than normal pellets and smaller than normal pellets in them. Some look like egg shaped 6s or even 5s, some look normal and some look like 8s. And if you're out there with four other guys each blasting away 125 of them total in one round of trap..... chances are some of the oblong looking egg shaped too large pellets, are going to find their way one hundred to two hundred feet or more beyond where we'd all think they'd be.

    Cut one open and pour the lead into an old coffee can and you will see them stand out immediately. Then do the same with a high quality target load like a Remington STS or Federal Gold Medal - and you will see all the pellets rolling together and "packed" against each other nicely and uniformly.
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    stevel-ct- You are absolutely correct when you stated that the shot size stamped on the outside of the box may not be the shot size in the shells. This is especially true for discount shells.

    The labor cost in shell manufacturing is relatively low. That means to produce a less expensive shell, the components that make up the shell must be obtained at a very low cost.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. jbmOU

    jbmOU Member

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    I use that same load all the time at my gun club I don't see any reason why they wouldn't allow you to use them unless there are buildings ou beyond the trap field.
     
  13. code5coupe

    code5coupe Member

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    "Cut (a cheap field load) open and pour the lead into an old coffee can and you will see them stand out immediately. Then do the same with a high quality target load like a Remington STS or Federal Gold Medal - and you will see all the pellets rolling together and "packed" against each other nicely and uniformly."

    Not in my experience.
    Several years ago, I cut open some AA's and some STS shells to check for shot uniformity. What I found was eye-opening: a shell marked as containing #8 shot IN ALL CASES would have shot ranging from #6 all the way up to #10.

    Unless things have changed in the last five years, even the premium shells do not contain uniform shot.

    Sad, but true.
    Code






    '
     
  14. bulgie

    bulgie TS Member

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    Sounds as if you folks are discussing Capitol Gun Club near Jackson, Ms. The president and BOD there think a load faster than 1200 fps will injure someone 800 yards away. I dont think they realize the gray AA and gold sts are haulin ass. Sam
     
  15. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Factory (SAMMI) standards require a 3 dram equivalent shell to be within 1110 and 1290 ft/sec. Some 3 dram handicap shells approach one limit and some 3 dram discount shells approach the other limit.

    Pat Ireland
     
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