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dram eq v's speed for Mr Winston

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Kemen053, Jun 11, 2009.

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  1. Kemen053

    Kemen053 Member

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    dram eq v

    Neil ,you have mentioned on a number of times not knowing where the speed v's dram equivilent thing comes from when shell speed is brought up,I knew I had seen it somewhere and it is in the 10th and 11th editions of Winchesters shotshell loading handbook.3 dram is roughly 1200 ,3 1/4 dram is 1255 etc.How 1200 fps shells from leading manufacturers can end up chronographing 1290 and still be O.K is one of the worlds unsolved mysteries,maybe due to barrel gurus rubbing the tubes with Arizona snake oil.If you send your e-mail I will scan it and send it to you.
    Regards Ross
     
  2. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    What Winchester forgot to put with their information is, based on SAMMI standards that all manufacturers follow, it that 3 dram equivalent actually is 1200 ft/sec + or - 90 feet. The accepted velocity for a 3 dram equivalent load overlaps the velocity of an accepted 2 3/4 dram equivalent and a 3 1/4 dram equivalent load.

    Pat Ireland
     
  3. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Ross, "where the speed v's dram equivilent thing comes from" can mean a number of things, but there are two aspects to the connection. One is the average (mean) and I looked up the 7th edition of the WW Reloading Guide and found the statement that 3-dram is approximately 1200 fps, just as you say. But it doesn't say what it means by "approximately" and that's here:

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    and

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>


    "approximately" means plus or minus 90 fps.

    Since I've known this for at least a decade and never denied it, I think you must be referring to the oft-repeated claim here that the ATA used to have a limit of 1200 fps on shells. I have maintained that it's said "3-dram equivalent," a text supported by Tami Daniels' research at the Trapshoooting Hall of Fame back to the mid-60's.

    My position is that the "1200 fps" crowd should use the WW word "approximately" and accept that the word means "plus or minus 90 fps."

    Neil
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Neil - There is another option for those who wish to hang onto the 3 dram equivalent limitation. That is to require us to shoot black powder and only use three drams. Shooting only black powder would change many other things, and some of them might be fun.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    . . . and a whole new set of subjects on TS.com, Pat: "What's the best wad-stack with cheapie hulls?" and "Three more flintlocks blew up at the club today."

    Neil
     
  6. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    At METRO? Whoa!!!
     
  7. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    No matter how you sugar coat the wording of the Saami specs, lets face the fact that the ATA and recently PITA buckled under to the desires of the ammo manufacturers to make an improved performance load and to hell with the previously accepted 1200 ft/sec standard. IMHO no one needs a 1250 ft/sec load for ATA trapshooting but as one All American stated "Why should I give an advantage to my competitors by Not using the maximum legal load ?"
     
  8. craby boy

    craby boy TS Member

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    Super Sporting clays AA Winchester @ 1300 FPS, are valid to use in ATA events or not.

    Thank you

    Pete
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Mike, you have me shaking my head. There's nothing about the SAAMI specs which are "sugar coated." they are simple statements of fact. The 1200 was in the understanding of shooters who did not know what the real rules were. People cover up the fact they didn't know this by using terms like "previously accepted" and so forth.

    That's why it's always either impersonal ("previously accepted") or passive voice ("It was long understood. . .") So far no one I can remember has written "I thought it meant 1200 fps when I read 3-dram because that's what everyone at the club always said and then I read it in the WW reloading guide and it said that and I just figured that when they wrote "approximately" they were thinking of a small number and didn't know it covered 90 fps." That's what happened, Mike, and you know it, so why won't anyone admit it and quit blaming the ATA?

    As far back as 1992, after Super Handicaps but before Nitro 27's and so on, the three-dram shells you probably shot were well over 1200 (but still "3-dram.")

    <a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank">[​IMG]</a>

    As I have written here before, I would personally like 1200 fps rule, as long as it has, in its text, a way to enforce it, on everyone. I've never seen any text at all and people have had 10 months; I suspect that means I never will.

    Neil
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pete, no they aren't if they are 1 1/8 ounce, but yes, if they are one-ounce.

    Neil
     
  11. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Interesting that the scanned image table, at the bottom, states, "All loads fired in full choke test barrels...." I thought the conventional wisdom was to use a cylinder barrel.

    Neil, am I missing something?

    If the Winchester Super Sporting Clays AA is nominally 1300 fps, that means as high as 1390 fps per the SAAMI tolerances, correct?

    By my reckoning, that means even if it was 7/8 ounce, it would not be legal for ATA shooting.

    Text from the rule book:

    "Any load with a velocity greater than 1290 FPS (Feet Per Second) with maximum shot charge of 1 1/8 ounces, or 1325 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 1 ounce, or 1350 FPS with a maximum shot charge of 7/8 ounces or less, as measured in any individual shotshell."

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but taking the SAAMI tolerance into account, the nominal muzzle velocity of shells used in ATA events, if one wants to assure themselves they will not be exceeding the ATA limit in the case of a shell that is to the "plus" limit of the SAAMI tolerance value, would be as follows:

    1-1/8 ounce nominal 1200 fps

    1 ounce nominal 1235 fps

    7/8 ounce nominal 1260 fps

    Now we all know that many shooters use the fine Remington Nitro 27 shells with a nominal published muzzle velocity of 1235 fps with a shot charge of 1-1/8 ounces of shot. But by SAAMI tolerances, this shell could be as high as 1325 fps.

    Your thoughts?
     
  12. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Tim, you are right, if you read about any magazine it will cite a cylinder-choked barrel. But that's because they've never read what you just did. Here's something odd: a full choke (vs cylinder) will lead to a higher reading with light-operated chronographs, lower readings with an inductive chronograph.

    As far as the rest, if the box says 1300 (1 1/8 oz load) that's pretty clearly illegal for ATA shooting, because the "tolerance" of +90 fps has already be "used up" in getting it to 1290. You see, the rule as written was intended to stay at 3-dram, but the writers didn't understand the nuances of testing, and so a box of one-ounce Federal Game Loads, called 3 1/4 dram and with a printed speed of 1300 fps are legal, though that was a surprise and people are still disqualified for shooting them here and there (but not in Minnesota.)

    I tried to keep the present rule from being written as it was, saying we needed more time to figure out what the effect would be, but was unsuccessful. As it is, I really can't defend it on any grounds, except that it keeps "Annie" loads from our firing line and that's all we need to do anyway, so I guess it works.

    Neil
     
  13. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Neil,

    Forgive my ignorance, but after reading your reply, I am even more confused.

    I guess I don't see how a 1 ounce load with a published muzzle velocity of 1300 fps can be legal if the SAAMI tolerances say the muzzle velocity for any one shell could be as high as 1390 fps.

    Nevertheless, as written, the rule is confusing and unenforcable.

    If I were King of the ATA, and I realize that'll never happen, I'd say nominal maximum shot charge of 1-1/8 onces, plus a manufacturing allowance of up to +3% (1.159 max cutoff) and no limit on velocity, since there's no practical way to test that on-site at a shoot anyway.

    Shot size and shot weight are pretty easily measured.

    Let the macho folks shoot those a$$-whuppin 1-1/8 ounce 1350 fps loads all they want.
     
  14. craby boy

    craby boy TS Member

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    Neil

    Thank you

    Pete
     
  15. Kemen053

    Kemen053 Member

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    Neil,thats an interesting chart,seems like most manufactures can only get the + part of the specs right and very few are less then what the could be.Anybody can get the deviation to be less than 180fps ,so why can't the major manufactures get it closere to the mark.I was just passing on some info,did not want to start anything,'cause where I'am at ,singles is 1 oz and hanndicap is 1 1/8 any speed you like,used to love shooting 3 1/2 de for 16 yd targets.
    Thanks Ross
     
  16. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Sooo, has anyone ever found those extremes from the velocity stated on a box of factory shells???

    I'd suspect the manufacturers keep it closer than the tolerance....
     
  17. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    A question concerning SAAMI plus or minus tolerances for shotshell loads. What date was the current set of specks written above? I'm wondering too if the standards were upgraded to cover the "handicap" loadings for the first AA silver bullets? Those were faster than red AAs by a wide margin at the time also. As well as the other manufacturers "handicap" offerings were. Hap

    This is taken from the SAAMI home page and the reason I ask the question concerning the dates in question above.

    Page 5
    "It is ANSI and SAAMI policy that every five years the stan-
    dards be revised or reaffirmed. Even if the standards remain
    the same, they must go through the approval process out-
    lined above. Simply stated, the standards accepted by ANSI
    and promulgated by SAAMI are reviewed and accepted by
    outside experts, and every five years the validity of the
    standards are re-affirmed."
     
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