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Doubles Rules Question

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Vijay, Apr 20, 2011.

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  1. Vijay

    Vijay TS Member

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    Rule VII, E, 11-f relating to No Target in Doubles states in part:

    “After a contestant has fired at either a legal or illegal first target, he/she is not required to fire at an Illegal second target, but if he/she does fire, the result must be scored.”

    Q. What if the contestant fired at and missed the first target and does not fire at the second illegal target; how is this scored? Gets to shoot another pair, but starts with a loss on the first target OR gets another pair and the results of that pair scored?

    Thanks for you interpretation.
     
  2. Shawn

    Shawn Member

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    What if the contestant fired at and missed the first target and does not fire at the second illegal target; how is this scored?

    You get another pair.

    If you miss the first one and the second one is broken or illegal, You shoot the pair over and the results of that pair are scored.


    Shawn
     
  3. Vijay

    Vijay TS Member

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    Shawn, that’s the way I thought it should be done.
     
  4. Don Rackley

    Don Rackley Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    There are many opinions about scoring this instance you describe, a lnk to the rule book is below.

    Section VII starting on page 27 covers this in detail

    http://www.shootata.com/pdfs/2011_Rulebook_4web.pdf
     
  5. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    The rule you quoted says it pretty clearly is you look at the whole rule not just part of it.

    VII. Official Scoring, E. No Target, 11-f

    f. If the contestant fires at an illegal first target and the second target is legal, he/she must also fire at the second target, and if he/she fails to do so, the legal second target shall be ruled, “LOST.” After a contestant has fired at either a legal or illegal first target, he/she is not required to fire at an Illegal second target, but if he/she does fire, the result must be scored.

    If you fire at the first target legal or not and the second target is legal you must fire at it or it is lost.

    Bob Lawless
     
  6. Vijay

    Vijay TS Member

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    Bob,

    The first part is clear and the answer is what you stated.

    My question is if you fire at the first target legal or not and the second target is ILLEGAL and you don’t fire, what happens?

    I think as suggested above, you get another pair and the results of that pair are scored, regardless if you hit or miss the first target of the first pair.
     
  7. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    Everybody posting above is correct. What follows is merely elaboration...

    The terms "illegal" and "no target" are often used interchangably but they aren't necessarily the same.

    A broken target is always a "no target". The result is the same whether it is turned down or fired upon. Nothing counts. Rules require broken targets be ignored and done over.

    A shooter is never required to shoot at an illegal target. If he/she does, the results count. However, trap doubles must always be shot as pairs. If an illegal first target is shot at (whether hit or missed) and an illegal second target is turned down, nothing counts and the pair must be shot over.

    (edited addition) The same is true if the second target comes out broken - results for the first target don't count.

    sissy
     
  8. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Jay you answered your own question in your quote,

    "After a contestant has fired at either a legal or illegal first target, he/she is not required to fire at an Illegal second target, but if he/she does fire, the result must be scored.

    You have asked the question twice and it was different both times. If you shoot at the first target whether you break it or not, legal or not you must fire at the second target or it is lost. The first sentence of paragraph says it.

    "If the contestant fires at an illegal first target and the second target is legal, he/she must also fire at the second target, and if he/she fails to do so, the legal second target shall be ruled, “LOST.”"

    The only way that this doesn't apply is if the shooter has a FTF on the second shot. That is only if the first target of the pair is dead if it is lost the FTF is not allowed.

    Bob Lawless
     
  9. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    This subject can get very confusing unless clear definitions and precise language is used.

    The last comment of Mr. Lawless's second post is correct. It can be restated as follows:

    "Failures to fire are not allowed (for any reason) on the second target of a doubles pair, if the first target of that pair (legal or illegal) was shot at and missed."
     
  10. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    <i>"If an illegal first target is shot at (whether hit or missed) and an illegal second target is turned down, nothing counts and the pair must be shot over."</i>

    I think this answer by Recoil Sissy answers the question Vijay wanted answered.

    Answer: Re-shoot the pair.
     
  11. white rattler

    white rattler Member

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    Shawn, The way I read it is if you shoot the first target you have bought the pair unless either one is a no (broken) target. Trevor.
     
  12. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Trevor, or illegal second target, then it's a do over.
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Trevor the rule says if it is broken whether you shot or not you get the pair over. If it is as stated in the rule,

    "After a contestant has fired at either a legal or illegal first target, he/she is not required to fire at an Illegal second target"

    I would say you get the pair over.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. white rattler

    white rattler Member

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    320090T I think that if you shoot at the first bird and it is illegal you have bought the pair unless the second bird is a (broken) bird. Otherwise you can shoot at a pair miss the first one and then turn down the second bird saying it was illegal and your squad mates can back you up. Trevor
     
  15. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    OK, I'll give you what I think should be done without looking at my book. If you fired the the first shot (legel or not) you bought it. If you turn down the second shot because you think it was bad OK. Most clubs will allow you to reshoot the pair, but if you missed the first target or (broke the first target) of your original pair that result will be scored with only the second shot scored of your second pair. So we'll say lost and no shot for the first pair, then a hit and a lost on the second pair. So the score would be lost and lost for the pair. Only fair way to do it. If the score keeper is a good one at a big shoot, If he thinks the second bird was legal then it would be lost and lost with no second try right then and there. What do the rest of say about my call on this one. Break-em all. JEff
     
  16. mx2k33

    mx2k33 Well-Known Member

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    What defines "first" and "second" targets of a pair? If there is one "legal" target and one "illegal", on say post 3, what if the "legal" target is the "second" target????
     
  17. Vijay

    Vijay TS Member

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    Thanks everyone. The reason I asked the question is because someone told me that at an ATA shoot he was told he gets another pair but the result of shot on the first target of the first pair gets carried over to the second pair (so basically, his first shot on the second pair did not count). I think this was a wrong ruling. Sorry if I am causing more confusion.

    mx2k33, I think whichever target you shoot first (left or right) is the first target...that's the way the results are called.
     
  18. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    "What defines "first" and "second" targets of a pair?"

    The first one is the one that your gun goes bang at first!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  19. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Mark -

    How you think it should be handled without looking at the book doesn't matter. The thread is titled "doubles rules question", so it's likely the OP wanted to know what the rule was, not how someone would do it without looking at the rule.

    Per the rule if you get an illegal target and don't shoot at it, you get to reshoot. There is also no rule in doubles, for any situation, that carries over the result of the first pair to the result of the second pair. The only place I've ever seen a rule like that is in Sporting Clays.

    In general if you shoot an illegal target then it's scored, but the rule is slightly different for doubles. I don't know for a fact, but my thinking is that since you can't effectively look at both targets at the same time it's impossible to know the second target is illegal until after you've already shot at the first one.

    There probably is room for abuse of this rule, such as Trevor pointed out, but in all the doubles I've ever shot I've never seen anyone take advantage of the rule.

    Scott
     
  20. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    We shot doubles during a hard, left to right, wind at Tucson and the right targets would hit the ground rather quick! Left targets were extremely high! The right targets hardly ever got above the legal height specified in the settings rule. If a shooter missed the first high left, could he turn down the right low target as illegal? Does he then shoot the pair over?

    BTW, I broke several of those rights about a foot off the ground! Sometimes breaking up pieces of broken clays on the ground in addition!

    Hap
     
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