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Doubles - Move To Second Target

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by BrowningGal, Sep 22, 2008.

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  1. BrowningGal

    BrowningGal TS Member

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    Here is a question I would like to pose to everybody. I'm working on improving my doubles. Getting the first shot is pretty easy. You know where it's going, and all you have to do is set up right and not take ten days to shoot it. I would like to explore in this thread the move to the second target.

    I've heard two methods of attack for this move. The first is a straight move directly to the target. I've heard this is preferred if you have a pretty fast rhythm from one target to the next. I would think the challenge is that the target is rising (ideally), and its position when you start the move is not the same as when you get there. You would also be susceptible to sudden target shift due to wind.

    The second method is kind of a dip, or a small "U" where the barrel, as it's moving to the second target, goes down slightly (not a lot) and then follows the flight path of the second target. The advantage here is that by following the flight path of the target, it is shot like a singles target. However, if the "U" is too dramatic, valuable time and lost, and you may end up with excessive gun movement.

    So, how do you move to the second doubles target: straight, dip, or other, and how does it work for you?
     
  2. otnot

    otnot Active Member

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    I would say it depends on how fast you take the first target whether you have to dip your barrel down to get under the second target. I like to shoot the first target soon enough that a move slightly upwards and across puts me level with the second target by the time I get there. If I start to miss the second target it's usually because I'm not shooting the first target fast enough. Or lifting my head. LOL
     
  3. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    The "dip", you refer to is a sure fire way to not improve on your doubles scores. It is almost impossible to do correctly every time, and is inconsistant, at best. Take the first target as quickly as you can, and the instant you pull the trigger, move your EYES immediately to the second target. Go directly to the target as you would a 16 yard target and take it as such. The trick, if there is one, in getting to the second target properly, is to take the first one as fast as you can, and moving your eyes directly to the second target as soon as you have made the first shot. If you keep your head in the gun, your gun will automatically follow your eyes and the gun will arrive at the second target at the same time as your eyes do and you can take the second shot while still in total control of your gun. Phil Kiner has an excellent section on doubles covering just this subject. He advises against the "dip", and advocates driving directly to the second target...........Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  4. Justin L.

    Justin L. Member

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    I move straight to the second target, but even more important is not keeping your eyes on the 1st target after the 1st shot. Shoot and immediately look for the second target. That will make you faster, I think, and better. It takes some practice, but you'll like what happens.
     
  5. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    You are right, hitting the first bird is easy. But it is the key to shooting good doubles. If you can learn to trap the first bird, shooting it without moving your gun, you can have a real time advantage on the second bird. I shoot the first bird looking under the gun for the bird. With no gun movement on the first bird you can make a very fast move to the second bird. Some days the U move works better than the straight move to the second bird. I practice both ways. HMB
     
  6. washandwear

    washandwear Member

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    Hi

    Shoot the first target with peripheral vision keeping the second target in view.
     
  7. canada

    canada Member

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    how do you make a good move on the second target? make a good move on the first one.

    i think it was either phil kiner or ray stafford that wrote that, but its true. i dont think you can spot shoot the first one because it tends to lead to a jerky move to the second. shooting the first one too fast, or jumping it, leads to the same on the second target.

    i move the gun a bit while i call for the target in doubles, see the target come above my barrel and pull the trigger when it does. i dont think you need to keep the second target in view because you know exactly where it is going to be. you need to see the first target too.

    your eyes have to beat your gun to the second target though, otherwise its going to be tough to hit.

    of course different methods work for different shooters though.

    pat lamont
     
  8. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Washn'wear, I can't agree with you on that one!!... In fact, I'd wager it's an impossibility on many stations...

    make a good move on the first one is what all (Ray, Leo, Harlan, Phil, etc) will tell you..

    Remember, 50% of your score will be that first bird. Don't throw too many of them away..

    JC

    Michigan
     
  9. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    I can tell you what I did. I am a left eye dominant right side shooter (one eyed). My doubles score has improved over the last year by 20%. What works for me is to have a higher eye hold and get the first bird as quickly as possible. If you see it break, you're waiting to long to get onto the second bird. As soon as the trigger is pulled you should be swinging (hopefully somewhat upward)to the second bird, distance and trajectory as it would be for handicap. I have either shot next to or watched some really good doubles shooters. While their style may be different there is a common thread, they are fast shooters. Good luck.
     
  10. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    I could be wrong but I think that Big Leo teaches using the dip as does CIM Charles Morrison. I seem to literally go Brain Dead after the first shot and am unable to do what I want to do with the 2nd. I would like to do the Dip because on Singles and Handicap I come from below the target and follow its flite path. I know very well a technique that does Not work for the 2nd bird: it is Fast swing, Stop the Gun, Jerk the Trigger and Spot shoot the 2nd bird. I try to get below the 2nd bird and sometimes I get a nice rythm going and some tens but then I get a bad station and drop a couple 2nd birds.
     
  11. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Banned User Banned

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    Charlie Morrison helped me learn how to shoot Dubs. I took a class with him and Charlie Jr, put what I could use in the hard drive, and changed a few things to suit my particular needs.

    I am left handed, left eye dominant, but shoot two eyed right handed. I hold at the far edge of the trap house roof, in the center, for every station. I track and destroy the first bird. I use 40 point chokes in all three barrels of my trusted Browning Unsingle Combo. As soon as I feel recoil, my eyes swivel and lock on to the second target before I move the gun toward it. Then, I make a little smiley face, coming up under the target I HAVE LOCKED ONTO VISUALLY, and destroy it.

    I have shot for decades, but Charlie proved to me, that in Doubles, one must see the second bird BEFORE the gun is moved toward it. One must avoid trying to locate the second bird while looking over the barrel. One must come up under the bird with a resolve to destroy it. This allows a very quick acquisition of the second target. Obviously, hitting the first target is cardinal as well. I learned this from Charlie and Jr.

    I never came close to running Dubs before I worked with Charlie. I HAVE run Dubs since. Every time I shoot Dubs now, If I am having a good day, and remember what Charlie taught me, I KNOW I can run them. If I don't, I will only drop a couple.
     
  12. AJ100

    AJ100 TS Member

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    +1 for washandwear, You get to the point where you don't even see the first one break. The second target looks like it is stopped and just hanging there.

    AJ100
     
  13. romie

    romie Active Member

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    Ohye says NO Dip! He da man!
     
  14. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

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    If you watch the big dogs shoot them you will notice they have a sort of rythm Boom Boom and its almost the same for every station. I'm not good at them by any means but when I asked how its done they tell me to pick a spot in the backround for the first target shoot it as fast as possible move your eyes immediatly to the second and then chase the second target. Don't know if this is the best advice but its what I've been told.
     
  15. canada

    canada Member

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    washandwear and aj,

    i think you still need to watch the first bird come out, make a smooth move to it, and shoot it as you would any other target, just quicker. you have to be looking at it in order to shoot it with any consistency.

    having said that, you can't admire it after you've pulled the trigger.

    i move my eyes over quickly to the second bird, but i can't ever remember an instance where i didn't know if the first bird did or didn't break.

    if you aren't looking at it when the target breaks, how can you tell why you missed it when you do?

    pat lamont
     
  16. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Pat,
    If you go to www.issf./tv you can watch the olympic and world cup shooters. They shoot the first bird in mens double trap with no gun movement at all. They trap the first bird and inkball the second. HMB
     
  17. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

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    I think thats what I ment trap the first bird sorry.
     
  18. Vernal Rod & Gun

    Vernal Rod & Gun Active Member

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    I don't believe trapping the first target is a good idea and here's why... if everything is working well, that is to say the pulls are on time(exactly), the targets are coming out where they are supposed to be(exactly), the wind is calm it will work. However if any one of those items are just a little off kilter you have a real problem. I would say that making a move on the first target is essential. That way any correction that needs to be made to a target can be made. Next, the move to the 2nd target.... I bekieve that the 2nd target should be approached from beneath it. The "U move" does this. If you shoot the first target aggressively you are going to need less of a U move because you have shot the first bird lower in the sky and the 2nd bird should still be rising when you go after it. The less aggressive you are on the first bird the more need there is for a dip to the second bird. If you go straight across you run the risk of losing sight of the 2nd bird. Don't forget about foot position when shooting dbls. Your feet should be positioned for your 2nd target. You don't want to bind up on your way to the 2nd target...that may feel a little uncomfortable for the 1st bird at first but after a few rounds it will feel normal and now you have the benifit of unwinding to the 2nd target.Good luck and shoot straight. Sean Hawley
     
  19. Harv Shell

    Harv Shell TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Pat & Sean, thanks for posting on threads like this. You guys have proven your theories out on the field and make it a lot easier to sift the wheat from the chaff. Harv.
     
  20. AJ100

    AJ100 TS Member

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    canada, I do see it come out. I'm holding the gun just below where I intend to break it. I am more focused on where the second target is coming out.

    If I'm on station two I mount the gun for the right target. I have already seen where it is coming out. I picked a spot in the background. I am looking more to the left target side of the house. When I see orange I pull the trigger. TRAP! There is no move to the target. The nano second after I pull the trigger, I'm moving the gun to the left target. Works for me that's all I can tell ya.

    Sean makes a good point. On windy days all I do is change the way I shoot them. If you have to "slow" down a bit, so be it, but I still pull the trigger and am on the second target as fast as I can. The first shot is almost a reflex move. I do watch EVERY pair that comes out. If something changes I don't want any surprises. Break the pair, clear the gun, reload, close the gun and LOOK.

    PLEASE! Do not start with the "you shouldn't close the gun before it is your turn" stuff. We have been over that one before.LOL

    If you do insist on talking about it, I can give you the name of someone on here that can tell you all about it.

    Good Shooting, AJ100
     
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