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Does He Keep the Punch?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by JBrooks, Jul 22, 2007.

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  1. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    OK you ATA Rule Book Lawyers, try this one out.

    On day one of a multi-day shoot, a 24.5 yrd Shooter, posts a 95. It ties another 95 for high gun. Both shooters agree to carryover. The Shooter mistakenly thinks that only the winner of the CO gets a punch so shoots the next day again from the 24 instead of the 25 where he should have been punched to for the high score tie the previous day. He posts a 97 from the 24 which again is high gun. When it is discovered he shot from the 24 instead of the 25, he is DQ'ed. He loses the Champion Buckle for the 95 on the carryover and he loses the Champion Buckle for the 97 as those targets are erased from his record.

    Question. Does he get to keep the one yard punch for the 97 and shoot the next day at the 26?
     
  2. Don Rackley

    Don Rackley Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    I agree with Jim W and the shooter's 97 does not count in the next days event. He shot from the wrong yardage.
     
  3. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    JBrooks I do not believe that he does because the score was illegal. As far as I am concerned he should receive a suspension for shooting the wrong yardage. He knew the carry over was for high gun and he new he was shooting the carry over for the trophy if he shot handicap without standing the right yardage he deserves a suspension.

    Bob Lawless
     
  4. Ray Brasser

    Ray Brasser Member

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    The question was... Does his 97 earn him a punch? And if you think it does, do you punch him 1 yard from the 24 (where he shot) or from the 25 (where he should have shot)?
     
  5. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    ivanhoe should have taken a reading comprehension course in Knight School. LOL

    It says the guy didn't know he had earned a punch and, consequently shot the wrong yardage by mistake. Where in the Rule Book does it say you get a suspension for mistakenly shooting the wrong yardage?
     
  6. dedpair

    dedpair Active Member

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    My understanding is that he gets the punch from the 25 to the 26. Shooting from the wrong yardage is an automatic DQ, but any earned yardage still applies. And all trophies and money are forfeited. And there is no suspension involved to my understanding, unless he had taken the punch to the 25 and intentionally still shot at 24. And that might warrant a suspension, especially if he had played all the money.

    Jeff G
     
  7. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    This is easy. It's the shooters responsibility to know his yardage. The man in question obviously got a punch since he was high score in the first event. The fact that there is a trophy or money involved does not effect the punch. That could be covered in the carry-over.

    In fact since there was a tie for high gun both shooters received a punch. Did the other shooter also shoot from the incorrect yardage the second event?

    If our boy shot the next event from his original yardage he is DQed and does not receive a punch for the second event. He also does not receive any prize money or recognition since a DQ supersedes his shooting.
     
  8. C1

    C1 Member

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    Jeff really knows his ATA rules.
     
  9. bcnu

    bcnu Active Member

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    I have never heard of anyone having a carryover for handicap. It is always decided on the day it is shot here in Missouri. Singles and doubles, sure, you can carry them over for a week or more conceivably, but not handicap. The next handicap you would already have to have been punched prior to the events start. And as said above, they would have both been punched. John
     
  10. Joe Woods

    Joe Woods Well-Known Member

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    Hi Score In the Event. Shooter's responsibility.
    number of shooters in event would have a bearing as well.
    Could have been only 1/2 yard ( 15-24 Shooters )

    Joe Woods/Ontario
     
  11. Jerry944t

    Jerry944t Well-Known Member

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    As I see it the punch has nothing to do with who ultimately wins the event. They both tied for high score so they both get a punch regardless of any results of a shoot off no matter when it was held.

    How much of a punch they received depends on the number of contestants.
     
  12. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    Hey Jeff G, where in Rule book is the rule you understand?

    bcnu, do the rules allow for a carryover in a handicap? If so, where?

    Nyttro, "They both do not get a punch for tieing, only the winner." Better go read the Rules.

    Jerry, "he is DQed and does not receive a punch for the second event" Where is that in the Rules?
     
  13. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    Jim W. "There is no such thing as a carryover in handicap" Prove it by rule.

    Also, What's the question in the first post and what is you answer?
     
  14. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    You can carry over handicap - as long as everyone involved agrees. I tied on the first day of the Las Vegas Fall Handicap a couple of years ago. There was another handicap later that day and it was around 100 degrees. I found the guy I tied with, we both didn't want to have to stay around until the very end to shoot-off, and as it turned out we were both in the same handicap squad in the afternoon - so we agreed to carry-over. The carry-over has nothing to do with punches, only with trohpies.

    Keep in mind that there have been singles ties decided by shooting handicap the next day - but you won't find that in the rulebook either.

    Section IV - H - 1.

    Shoot-offs shall be considered and interpeted the same as registered events and all applicable ATA rule shall apply UNLESS MUTUALLY AGREED UPON BY ALL CONTESTANTS.

    However when there are tied in a handicap event and any tying shooter earns yardage and consequently will be shooting from farther back in the subsequent handicap event ALL TYING SHOOTERS MUST AGREE TO THE CARRYOVER.

    For those that might not be aware, the full ATA rule book is available at www.shootata.com. Click on "About the ATA" and you will find the link to the rulebook at the bottom of the page.

    Scott
     
  15. Jim Brown (the puller)

    Jim Brown (the puller) TS Member

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    Carryover MAY be used to decide ties in handicap IF all shooters in the tie so agree AND if they all accept that the shootoff will be from their new earned yardage. Carryover cannot be forced on any handicap shooter, but a shootoff can be delayed until a later date if conditions require, preferably the next morning before that day's events commence.

    The SCORE receives the punch, not the winner of the event.

    In this case, if the subsequent 97 (an automatic yard punch, unless the number of shooters makes for more yardage) earned more yardage than did the 95, I can see the larger of the two punches being awarded FROM THE YARDAGE ACTUALLY SHOT despite the score being DQed from winning the event.
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    26.

    Think of it this way. Now this guy was not cheating and just didn't understand the rules, but say:

    A guy in the 25 is properly put there and he's shooting on the other side of the country from where he's likely to be known. He know no one, and no one knows him. There's a $1000 bill for winner.

    He intentionally misses his squad, is resquadded alone, and shoots from the 20 because no one will know. He breaks the winning score with a 97 but - someone does know him and he's disqualified. It's sure he gets the 1-yard punch. From where? The 20 he shot from or the 25? I think everyone will agree on this, and so I ask, what's the difference?

    Neil
     
  17. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    OK Jim W. try to understand. All qualifying scores and ties get a punch. If you re-read the first post, the Shooter did not know he earned a punch. Obviously, shoot management did not notify him that he had earned a punch, so, he shot the next event at his old yardage.

    Jbrooks question is "Does he get to keep the one yard punch for the 97 and shoot the next day at the 26?" What is you answer? I say he does.
     
  18. BDodd

    BDodd TS Member

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    Hey fellers, the "carry-over" only applies to trophy - which of the two high scores gets to keep the "winner" trophy and the other guy takes any "runner-up" award. They both STILL shot the high score and are punched for that. The fact they decided to settle first and runner-up trophies has no bearing on the highest scores posted for that first event. I'll not get into the battle beyond that....breakemall....Bob Dodd
     
  19. saluki68

    saluki68 TS Member

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    Several years ago at, I think, the TX State shoot because it was in San Antonio, a squadmate shot one of the traps from the wrong yardage (I forget if it was closer or farther). He realized it at some point & turned hiself in-they DQ'd his score of 97 or 98 but punched him anyway. Tom
     
  20. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    So Neil,

    If I want to get my 27 yard pin, I just shoot 97s from the 20, having my score DQed but getting to keep the 1 yard punches until I hit the 27? Heck, I guess I could shoot from the 16 or stand atop the house as long as my 97s earn a yard regardless of my score being DQed.
     
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