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does backboring really help?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by bodybuilder, Mar 6, 2007.

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  1. bodybuilder

    bodybuilder TS Member

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    I was Just wondering if people thought backbored guns shot better? I've owned 2 myself, a Winchester Super x2 and a Remington 870 trap and I could'nt get as good a patterns from them as a regular gun, Do you have to use Less choke constriction? I Just bought a Browning that is backbored and wanted to get the best out of it. Thanks
     
  2. bobby ward

    bobby ward Member

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    targetmaster,

    We lost a true genius and the real pioneer in this field when Stan Baker of Seattle passed away a couple years back. I spent hours talking to him and had him perform his magic on a couple of guns for me. Today, the masters are Wilkinson and Eyester.

    Ok, so when you ask if back boring or over boring barrels makes them shoot better, what do you define as better? Just better patterns? The theory behind a back bored barrel is that it should shoot better patterns and have softer recoil. Just having your barrel over bored is NOT going to offer up it's truest and best potential. Extra long and polished forcing cones and extended length choke tubes both play a huge part in this as well. The philosophy is that a charge of shot moves more freely down a .745 or .750 bore, than it does a .725 sized bore. You can't really argue effectively that this is wrong. Patterns improve because there is less deformation of shot at each end of the barrel, both the forcing cone/chamber area and then again at the choke. The recoil is lessened considerably in most cases as well.

    The answer to your choke tube question is a "conditional yes". It does take less choke to get the same pattern efficiency in a back bored barrel as it does in a standard bore. You have to be careful in accepting that theory at face value however as each gun and barrel can perform differently with different choke sizes and even shell composition. Just because your 3 dram AA with 1 1/8 ounces of 7.5 shot shoots to a specific pattern from your gun does not mean a STS or Gold Medal will do the same. My Kolar trap gun patterns with the same efficiency using the .025 choke tube as many other guns that I have owned did with a .035 choke. I used .010 and .015 chokes in my Kolar sporting clays where I used to have to use .020 and .025 in my Browning to get the same effect.


    Browning does not alter forcing cones and will not warrant a gun that is returned for service, if the factory standards for the bore have been altered in any way. Lengthening the forcing cone voids your factory warranty and in most cases they will return the gun with a refusal to work on it. A friend of mine sent in his 425 Sporting Clays gun for repair that had a release trigger put in by Spears and Browning refused to work on the gun unless they put the trigger back to factory pull configuration. So, be very careful about alerations on your new Browning.
     
  3. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    It certainly seems to me that the factory backbored barrels of my Browning XT diminish the "felt" recoil of trap loads...perhaps it is the combination of backboring and stock configuration, but the XT has almost negible recoil, even with 3 dr. loads. I tried switching back to my Remington 870s and learned how much "felt" recoil they have. Ed
     
  4. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Last fall, I sent my KX-5 to Stu Wright for his barrel magic with the main intention of seeing if a larger bore shoots softer. Stu only had the gun three weeks to open the bore from .730" to .745", do the forcing cone and make up new choke tubes for it but I unfortunately was in the middle of a rifle-building project when it returned and was spending my shooting time at a local club's rifle range, so I didn't shoot my KX-5 for a total of about six weeks. Accordingly, I really couldn't tell if it did shoot softer the first time I shot it, so I asked another shooter with a KX-5 to shoot mine for a post during a round of practice. He thought it had noticeably less recoil than his. And now that I've shot it for a few months, I think it does shoot softer, but the difference is not huge.

    However, when you have the shoulder joint pain I get the day after shooting, every little bit helps.

    Ed
     
  5. J.P.

    J.P. TS Member

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    Booby Ward: I think this bacboring thing is just a conspiracy.....just kidding!! Backboring will only help if you need it. However if it didn`t work Baker, Eyster, Wilkinson, and Allor would be unknowns. I feel the real benefit is trueing up the barrel and choke so it consistently shoots even patterns, all four quadrants on a pattern board hve equal number of pellets showing. Golden BB or single bullet theory; same thing!
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Here's my post from an April 2006 thread of similar name, link above:

    "Over the last couple of years I've tested standard-bore and overbore Perazzis and analyzed the patterns with Andrew's Shotgun-Insight program. The following were all done with heavy 7 1/2's but two brands - WW and Federal Paper - were used. Additionally, not all were shot "head-to-head," that is, shot on the same day. With those two warnings on taking the results as "certain", here's what I got.

    [​IMG]

    There's no indication in these data that overboring leads to tighter choke. I personally consider tighter choke an advantage at long-yardage handicap.

    Neil"

    Since posting that, I've acquired a number of other overbored Perazzis and once it warms up will be able to do a more complete test, though I doubt, based on this . . .

    http://www.trapshooters.com/cfpages/message.cfm?messageid=876908

    that anything will change.

    Neil
     
  7. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Neil, if you enlargen the bore without changing the muzzle diameter, you are increasing the amount of choke constriction. Therefore, to keep the same amount of choke constriction you had prior to the bore being opened and/or avoid tightening the choke, you would have to change the choke tube or ream the fixed choke.

    Or isn't that what you meant?

    Ed
     
  8. glenn mcleod

    glenn mcleod Member

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    Neil, I don't think the better quality backbored barrels necessarily shoot tighter ,unless they are choked tighter, but I feel they do shoot softer and also the only reason I would do it is because of the better (more even) pattern. I just got a mx-7 combo back from Allor so I'll be able to see what his work is like. After talking to him on the phone a few times he definately knows shotguns. He also told me the triggers were not set properly (I had just had them done) and he reset the set and releases to the same poundage so I'm excited for warm weather so I can see if it was money well spent. Take care. Glenn Mcleod
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Ed, that's a good question. As you remember, old Perazzis commonly had bores of 0.725 to 0.730 and came with chokes close to 0.040. Most backbored barrels are done with about 0.033 these days, in fact, the factory overbored Perazzi MX-2000 has just that. But I also have an overbored barrel with about 0.040 choke, and it's in that graph above.

    I have found, in the one case I tested, that more choke - beyond 0.040 - produced (again, in this case) reduced pattern percentages. Not "blown" by any stretch of the imagination, just lower by enough to document by shooting, and counting, ten patterns.

    I agree with your post, and thank you for pointing it out, since people who have guns "done" and don't change their chokes to lesser constriction as well might not be getting the best their guns can produce.

    Neil
     
  10. 682LINY

    682LINY Member

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    As all real trap shooters know,,,,it only matters if you think it helps,,,,as all targets must be broken between you ears before they are broken on the field,,,,if you think it helps it will,,,,in most cases,,,some of us are lacking between the ears
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Glenn, I shoot my Allor Perazzi on singles as well. I think you will like it as much as I like mine. I don't notice it shooting "softer" but it does break singles by the hundreds. I had him keep the POI almost flat and so shoot something else from Handicap.

    Neil
     
  12. MXSHOOTER

    MXSHOOTER TS Member

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    Neil, how does your bowen compare to perazzi, I am seriously considering a new bowen and am just curious about your experience.
     
  13. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    My Bowen puts more pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards than any other gun I've tested, though some old Perazzis are very close (the new overbored one less close.) I'm a slowish handicap shooter so more pellets is what I like. Therefore . . .

    Neil
     
  14. MXSHOOTER

    MXSHOOTER TS Member

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    Thanks Neil, I am going to see Bruce this friday and am looking forward to it
     
  15. bobby ward

    bobby ward Member

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    There are lots of good points here but few acknowledge the differences seen a lot of times with different loads and with different choke tubes....You need to do some pattern board work to really know what is best out of your barrel.

    SkipC, After working 15 years for a major manufacturer of Archery Equipment at one time in my life, the one thing I learned is that manufacturers many times do things that they know offer little extra benefit just because the customer wants it that way. It took a long time for European shotgun manufacturers to embrace open bore technology and it was only then because the customers demanded it in their guns. One year when overdraws and light arrows were the rage and people were looking for more speed and flatter trajectories, Easton Aluminum changed the name on several of their XX75 shaft sizes to read "Superlite". It projected an image of a newer version of a certain shaft dimension that was lighter and therefore faster than the previous version. It was in reality the exact same dimension in weight, diameter and wall thickness as the old version, but the new name "Suoerlite" made them sell like ice cream on a hot day....
     
  16. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    "I was Just wondering if people thought backbored guns shot better?"

    I hope not. My trap gun barrels only measure 0.723!
     
  17. fritzi93

    fritzi93 TS Member

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    I'm unconvinced.

    I recall about 10 years ago reading an article about backboring, might have been Shotgun Sports, I dunno. The author asked a Beretta representative about it. The reply was, in essence, that Beretta saw no benefit in it and therefore had no plans to offer it in any of their guns.

    I thought: Benefit for whom? The shooter, or does Beretta just believe that the retooling cost won't pay in the present market?

    Beretta has since changed their tune. When and why did they see the light?
     
  18. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    I can tell you something very certain about at least one overbored barrel. I have an 870TC with one of Remington's backbored "Target" barrels that has a .745" bore. Like most of you, I know several shooters who have 870s and say they kick hard. I've loaned my barrel to some of those people and they cannot get over how much difference it made in their guns. Unfortunately, Remington no longer makes overbored barrels and all the "Target" barrels in their parts inventory have .727" bores.

    Ed
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    ED, I've got both. I'll try it when (if) the snow around here starts to melt. In the meantime, my report on barrel effects, above, incluses:

    There were 5 full-choke “trap” barrels with bores ranging from
    0.727 to 0.733 inches. They produced speeds from 1179 to 1188 fps.
    Two more with magnum chambers also fell within that range. A single
    34-inch trap barrel clocked 1201 fps.


    The two “overbore” barrels (diameter 0.745 inches) on veteran
    Competition 870’s produced speeds of 1189 and 1187 fps, at the
    upper range of their standard-bore stablemates. The two modern factory
    overbore barrels with extra-full Remchokes™ were significantly
    slower at 1168 and 1171 fps.

    Neil
     
  20. lumper

    lumper TS Member

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    Ok ... so ... backbored barrels are good or bad for the sport?

    Do they or dont they give a better pattern?

    Those are important questions but there is also something that has been mentioned that I wonder about. It has been said that backbored barrels shoot softer than a non backbored barrel. Do they have less recoil?
     
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