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Does anyone know the RPM's of clay targets?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Perazzi_MX8, Feb 17, 2013.

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  1. Perazzi_MX8

    Perazzi_MX8 Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone know the RPM

    PAT-TRAP told me they have never measured it when I asked them. After seeing all the video clips, of target breaks, it seems that the RPM of a spinning target is very important. Next question would be, can trap machines be adjusted to spin targets faster or slower? I have used a marker to draw a wide line from the center to the edges of orange dome targets. They seems to spin quite fast when watching them in the air. Someone on here knows the answer I'm sure. Thanks in advance.


    Duane
     
  2. chuckie68

    chuckie68 Active Member

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    That would be dependent on the velocity of the throwing arm and other variables. It would follow that the faster the bird is flying, the higher the RPM. Another variable is the coeffeicient of friction between the actual bird and the throwing platten. Less friction, higher bird speed. ETC. An interesting Engineering problem.

    Chuck
     
  3. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Neil has given it before. Too bad idiots keep driving him away from this forum, as we could sometimes could use a little accurate technical info.

    -Gary
     
  4. Bob M

    Bob M Member

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    I got about 3320 RPM assuming a 42 mph target and a good sticky rubber on the throwing arm. YMMV
     
  5. Dr A C Jones

    Dr A C Jones Member

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    See above.

    Andrew.
     
  6. Ron Burdick

    Ron Burdick Active Member

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    I don't believe anybody, idiots or not drive Neil Winston to anyplace he doesn't care to go to.

    Ron Burdick
     
  7. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The spin is 2000 RPM and, as Chuck says, is directly dependent on the speed it's thrown. It does not depend on target brand or dimples or anything like that. It does depend to some extent on the brand of machine it's thrown from. The oft-stated claim that GMV traps "don't put as much spin on the target" is not true. GMV and PAT Traps perform the same in that respect.

    It also does not depend on whether the arm has been recently sanded, as least when it's thrown from a PAT Trap. You can check the spin on a trap that hasn't been sanded for years, then sand the arm the way everyone recommends, then retest the spin and it will be unchanged.

    The spin does not slow on the target’s way from the trap to the 49 yard stake. When it's 2000 RPM at the start it's 2000 RPM at the end.

    I have been told by someone I believe that my calculation of the maximum spin, as modeled my the bird rolling across the ground is wrong, since what comes off the arm is the sum of two vectors, not just one. Every now and then I understand that, but then it slips away again. So I suggest that you accept that the spin-speed we observe, about 2000 RPM is close to the maximum available and slippage doesn't amount to anything, which would explain the sanded-arm result (but not the machine-difference result.)

    Neil
     
  8. Ron Burdick

    Ron Burdick Active Member

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    Neil,

    Why does a target appear to break better [smaller pieces] after the arm has been sanded on a Pat Trap?

    Ron Burdick
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I don't know, Ron. Selective perception is always the first thing to suspect. Or seeing what you expect to see.

    I've done the test several times on a couple of machines. Same result every time. No change.

    To me it seems likely that the camera, not aware of what it "should" see, just reports what is actually in front of it.

    Neil
     
  10. ric3677

    ric3677 Well-Known Member

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    Neil,

    When we had both Pat and GMV's at the club, when I would set the targets on both using the speed gun (prospeed), using the same speed for both machines the target didn't go as far on the GMV as it did the pat. Other than spin, which keeps the target in the air longer, what would the reason be?

    Thanks for all you do......Rick in MT
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I can't account for your results, Rick. But to do such a test you have to be very, very careful, with everything. The height of the target has to be the same, exactly the same, because the higher it flies, the shorter it will fall. And the place where it lands has to be the same relative to the trap and so on.

    And then you have to do the test right. A single speed or two doesn't cut it. You won't know if they are the same or different until you can draw an accurate functional relationship between launch speed and target-flight-distance for each of the traps.

    You need an observer in the target-fall area with a radio to report his judgement, bird by bird, by radio, back to someone _who is writing it down. _ The observer will need the help of some colored sticks on the ground marked off by yards. He can then say, with confidence "46 yards, 46 1/2 yards," and so on.

    Start slow, maybe 36 MPH. Throw ten targets and add a couple of turns (or add a shim in the GMV) and throw ten more and so on until you are going way over ATA speed. Your data-recording helper will need to record speed and distance for 50 or so individual targets from each machine.

    You will get data which looks like this and you see how easy it will be to figure out what's going on.

    turns_distance_bestfinal__zpsc5c43be3.gif

    speed_distance_13final_zpse1c3a57b.gif

    Then graph the data, both on the same graph. Then you will know if they really fly different distances, and what's more important, you will know by how much.

    We made tests of GMV machines one midnight at Dale's club. The subject was not the machines but rather whether Remington targets flew farther when launched at the same speed. They were heavier (105 grams) than were the White Flyers (95 grams.)

    The theory was, as I'm sure you remember, that the Remingtons would fly farther. In the midnight test they didn't. Nor were the speed/distance relationships any different that I was familiar with from PAT Traps.

    I may be making this up to pat myself on the back but I recall drawing up the results that we would get before we did the test. Kenny Brandt was there. He can tell us what he remembers.

    And the last part of your question, spin does not keep the target in the air longer. It's not a helicopter. Spins stabilizes the target at fixed angle of attack, which at the start is zero degrees.

    Spin also helps the target blow itself apart when it is weakened enough.

    Thanks for your question and the help you were in getting people so accept "Targets Setting by Speed" at the beginning.

    Neil
     
  12. Perazzi_MX8

    Perazzi_MX8 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks to all for the info posted above. I knew we had the expertise on this forum for some interesting reading. Neil, you have a lot of knowledge about our sport and thanks for sharing with us.


    Duane
     
  13. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Neil's mother wore combat boots! d;o).
     
  14. Ken Brandt

    Ken Brandt Active Member

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    As I remember I was suprised that the two different target brands flew basically the same distance no matter what was done with speed. I had expected a more pronounced discrepancy between the two than there actually was. So much for another myth.

    As far as the super-star having less spin, go hold the stake when they are setting target's. When they pass overhead you duck because they rip through the air same as a pat. If any of you have shot at Dale's you know he keep's the place looking like a golf course and when target's hit the ground at the stake it's not unusual to see them run in a little circle.

    I don't think people realise just how much work Neil actually does in trying to prove or dis-prove all af the so called truthes and myth's of trapshooting. I for one appreciate all he does. I for one thank him.


    Ken

    Neil; you have a p.m.
     
  15. dale1957

    dale1957 Member

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    I'm a skeet shooter with a radar gun. At or club the trap targets r 38 mph 25 ft out of the house. Skeet targets r usually 49 out of the high house, 48 out of the low house.
     
  16. Wolfman

    Wolfman Member

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    Neil, I can;t thank you enough for stepping above opinion to work with facts. All of your research, in tandem with Dr. Jones's, has been useful and enlightening.

    PLEASE keep it up!
     
  17. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Which is the true target speed 2,000 RPM or 4,100 RPM Dr. AC Jones shows a video with targets taped to shor rotation, and camera speed photographing the target to me dictates a truer computation.

    But a trap w/a new rubber installed on the arm will cause greater spin due to SHEER Gripping of the Rubber to bird.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  18. GW22

    GW22 Active Member

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    Neil:

    You said "The spin does not slow on the target’s way from the trap to the 49 yard stake. When it's 2000 RPM at the start it's 2000 RPM at the end."

    I must have missed that day in physics. Air friction alone should cause some angular deceleration, right? Please explain.

    Thanks,

    Gary
     
  19. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    You will never get me to believe that a targets RPM when it leaves the arm, and the RPM 50 yards away is the same w/o slowing down.

    Perepetual MOTION has not been documented yet, that target spinning in the air and traveling at X mph against the friction of the air is not slowing down?

    Show me a Physicist that will prove that? And I will buy him a drink of his choice.

    This is really a thread of skepticism w/a lot of doubt. Only on Target RPM.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  20. Pride Engineer

    Pride Engineer Member

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    Neil, I'm confused, using your graph of ft/sec vs target distance, it seems to be saying 68.6 ft/sec equals a 50 yard target, if my reading of your graph is correct, then why would the ATA rule specify the appropriate target speed for targets to obtain the proper distance is at least 42 mph?

    Mark
     
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