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Do your scorers know the rules?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by ffwildcat, Oct 3, 2008.

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  1. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    I know some of the shooters know the rules but do the scorers have a working knowledge or are they just there to score the targets?

    If the scorers don't know the rules (and I know most of them don't have a clue) then who makes the ruling on the field? The shooters or shoot management?

    Should scorers be required to take a test and be licensed (or at least sanctioned) by the ATA?

    Is there any merit to going to a system where we have both a referee AND a scorer on the field?
     
  2. trapshootin hippie

    trapshootin hippie Well-Known Member

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    Skeet????????




    Gne J
     
  3. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    I think that it's important to remember that these are just kids, looking to make a few extra bucks. This is not a carrier for them, so many shooters really need to just lighten up a bit. I do not and will not tolerate anyone on my squade being a Jerk to a trapper. If you have a problem that can't be resolved in a quick fashion (nearly all can be and on the spot), then call on management.....but, give the kid a break.
     
  4. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Tron's absolutely correct....

    Maybe we (the ATA) should have a test for the shooter's....rules, safety, equipment, etc., etc.

    Curt
     
  5. byteme

    byteme TS Member

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    I know that the Las Vegas Gun Club will use an ATA member as a ref along with a scorer on shoot offs. This seems to work well as there is now an extra set of "expert, impartial eyes" who could defer to the shoot management if a really big problem arose. This would keep the "kid" score keeper out of it.
     
  6. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Most clubs don't have enough experienced volunteer help (shooters) to put in the scoring position so we use inexperienced young people (low cost) to do this work. No they don't know the rules and that is a problem particularly when there are failures to fire and other anomolies. Its not a perfect world but it seems to work.

    The good news is that there are usually enough seasoned shooters on the line that know the rules and they handle most of the problems on the spot. (self policing)
     
  7. ffwildcat

    ffwildcat TS Member

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    The good news is that there are usually enough seasoned shooters on the line that know the rules and they handle most of the problems on the spot. (self policing)

    Good point Wolfram. We do have a ready supply of experienced shooters - some of whom know the rules well - their help in dealing with routine matters is appreciated. Many others are just shooters who have never opened a rule book and are little better than a "scorer with a gun".

    Shoot Management usually consists of the club owner or club officers and maybe the local State ATA body dude - those guys are typically taxed on shoot day dealing with administrative matters or squadding or scores or trophies or payouts or fixing traps etc. etc.

    If we have experienced shooters that know the rules shouldn't we tap into that resource and take some of the burden away from Shoot Management and delegates? Shouldn't the ATA consider a testing/licensing/certification program that would offer clubs the opportunity of forming a jury pool to "officiate" at a shoot from these licensed individuals.

    Self policing works but self policing from "certified rules officials/shooters" would raise the level of credibility.
     
  8. slide action

    slide action Well-Known Member

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    For a long time now people having been calling for a "referee" certification program like skeet shooting has. It is true many scorers are not famaliar with the rules. Many are especially not schooled in failure to fire rules I.E. not marking them on the score sheet, allowing more than 2 per sub event etc.. I have also seen some shooters take advantage of them. Not too long ago I saw a shooter who had a swuib load try a pull a "failure to fire when all the components had cleared the barrel. Another shoter wouldn't let him get away with it, but the kid sure didn't know. I agree more training should be given to scorers to know the ATA rules.
     
  9. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    It is true that a good many scorers don't know the rules. But for minimum wage I don't think a competency test is inline for qualification.

    Also true, a good many trapshooters do not know the rules... Simple fact..
     
  10. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    As an NSSA, NSCA, and ISSF Certifed Referee, don't forget I had to study, take and send in the test, WITH MONEY.

    NSSA refs get a nickel a target and up. If you want to add $5-$8 a hundred to your target cost, go for it.

    I have spent many a day in the scorer's chair for free. I did not mind doing it. Nobody ran over this old man.

    If they come up with a Certified ATA Ref program, count me in.
     
  11. FRedmon

    FRedmon Active Member

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    It is something that has been needed for a LOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time.

    Spent about 16 years in a chair at the Pinehurst GC and that was when you had to push the button.

    FRedmon
     
  12. Sam (ATA Noobie)

    Sam (ATA Noobie) Member

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    Lots of threads complaining about the cost of shooting, and the next one down complaining that we don't have certified scorers.

    Pick one, you can't have both.

    When I first got into the sport, I was asked to volunteer for a shoot at the local Ikes where I was on the trap team. Well, after a few rounds of settling in and getting used to shooters who call for a bird immediately following the shot, I thought I was doing pretty damn well.

    Then one of the older gentleman LIT into me for not silencing the gentleman talking in the pavillion 20-30 yards away. I'd never even heard them.

    I've NEVER had as many complaints, and downright petty bitching scoring any other discipline than ATA. And yet none of those guys are willing to spend 2 minutes and sit in the chair themselves.

    If I have a discrepancy, I take care of it on the spot, politely, and only with the support of at least one member of my squad. But I have to laugh and shake my head when I see guys arguing with a 15 year old kid about whether or not a target was too wide or too low, etc.
     
  13. Superdog1

    Superdog1 TS Member

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    It is ironic how the clubs who take the time to teach the rules to their scorers seem to have better turn outs for their shoots. I enjoy shooting where I do not have to worry about being beat by a better B.S.'er. The score is the score, and the rules are the rules. I have spent many hours in the scorer's chair also. Just have the club management teach the rules, and let's not build a better trojan horse, the old one works fine.
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    It is clear that many shooters, who believe they know the rules, actually know only some of the rules. If we add to this mix, a scorer who has passed some sort of test and also knows some of the rules, but believes he knows all of the rules, we could get great confusion.

    Passing a test does not mean the person understands the material, only that the person has passed a test. We are better off with a scorer who knows they don't know all of the rules rather than a scorer who thinks they know all of the rules but actually does not know all of them.

    The current system works well. When a question arises, it is usually correctly resolved.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Minimum standards should be in place for the people who work at ATA registered shoots. Competitors have a right to be treated fairly under the rules that are in place at the time. HMB
     
  16. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    We could have more competent scoring/judging if we were willing to pay for it. Ask yourself......how much more per round would you be willing to pay in "judging fees"?

    John C. Saubak
     
  17. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    I don't know how many of you have ever run a gun club, particularly in the past few years. 20+ years ago we had no problem getting volunteers to do scoring etc. Most were experienced enough to have basic knowledge of the rules. As time pasted there have been fewer and fewer volunteers. The help hired was minimum wage. For a few years the help would usually stay through the shooting season and maybe the next year. As time passed it has become ever more difficult to have the same people back. New help all the time. Certainly no way to give them proper instruction and/or to have them read and understand all the rules.

    As Pat stated above a lot of shooters do not understand the rules properly. Let us just be happy we still have a few clubs open. We are loosing far more than are being replaced. Stop worrying and enjoy the sport. - Jim
     
  18. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    Pat Ireland has got it exactly right. My guess is that half the people shooting trap don't understand the allowable failure to file, and 90% don't know what to do if somebody shoots out of turn.
     
  19. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    How long does it take to become a "seasoned shooter" who know all the rules and has the respect of all the participants to issue a correct decision. Since the average ATA member only participates around five years there must be a serious shortage of "seasoned shooters" at most events!!
     
  20. Little Dog

    Little Dog TS Member

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    I'll bet that 90% of ATA memebers don't have nor have they ever seen a current rule book. Since the ATA doesn't bother to send them out, one could conclude that they don't care whether the rules are followed or not.
     
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