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Do Pat Traps Have trouble throwing hard angles?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by setter, Feb 17, 2009.

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  1. setter

    setter Member

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    I can't determine what "they" were trying to explain but I can tell you, when the trap is set up to throw 2 hole (or 3 hole) you will get the extreme angles.

    Now, having said that, a problem can arise that precludes the extreme angles from being thrown. Certainly not the norm.
     
  2. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Gary don't you have anything else to do??

    Don
     
  3. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Horse Puckey.

    HM
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Your speculation is wrong from everything I've seen from inside the house, Gary. You might ask yourself how this could be since there's no rubber stop to bump against that I've ever seen; it's done with electronics. There is, however, something interesting to consider about Pat-traps.

    Past-President Neal Crausbay asked, a couple of years ago, whether the _distribution_ of hard angles was the same for hand-sets and Pat-Traps, the difference being that the traverse of the former is based on a circle, the latter on a linear actuator.

    I tried to test this in a naturalistic setting, the SW Grand for a couple of years, but it's impossible since in real life traps are not set very carefully centering the target (or the wind comes up) and so you get way more of one side than the other even if you track 125 targets.

    But the more I consider Neal's point, the surer I am that he's on to something. The linear system ensures that the speed of movement is about the same no matter where the trap happens to be in its traverse. But the circle should lead to motion like a sine wave, which is slow at the "ends" and rapid in the center. I'll have to look at a hand set when I get a chance to confirm this, but I'm betting on it right now. I did a recent test of maximum angles and you have to watch a whole five-shooter sub-event to be sure you actually saw the hardest angle - there aren't very many of them.

    But Gary, all this two-hole/three-hole Pat-Trap/handset guff is about as pointless as it can be. There's a lot of play in any handset with time on it since a rebuild; at the Grand in the last years you could move most of them at least an inch - and get a huge "clank" as well - due to accumulated "slop" in bushings and so on. Likewise, the sensors on Pat-traps may or may not be where they should be (and may or may not be of equal sensitivity) and the routine of centering them in the morning (as was _always_ done with a hand-set) is done annually if ever at most clubs now, and the effect is, even if the "spread" is right, some plenty wide angles, if only on one side.

    As I've posted many times, the winning scores at the Grand didn't change much in 30 years, at the Minnesota State shoot in 50 years. When we shot straightaway from one and five in 1996, the handicap averages for the top 40 shooters dropped by about half a bird.

    Good shooters break the targets and beat less-good shooters most of the time and there's no way around it. And why should it either surprise or bother us?

    Neil
     
  5. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    I too remember the comment by Neal Crausbay. I have not been able to get much data to prove or disprove his idea. I have noticed that standing between post one and two while scoring, I rarely see more than 2-3 hard right angles out of 125 targets. I really don't know what this means other than it takes a lot of time to check the angles when setting fields. On the other hand, when I shoot on post one, the hard left angles seem to be common.

    Pat Ireland
     
  6. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Based on your comments about equipment used in ATA competitions, one would have to believe that the ATA is in the stoneage when it comes to fairness in competition.

    Just compare ATA trap to Olympic Bunker Trap. In bunker trap each competitor shoots the same number of targets, the same number of straight aways, and the same number of angles. A truly fair competition. HMB
     
  7. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I believe that Gary is referring to a post which I put up. First, a Pat Trap will throw targets both while it is actually moving but also it will come to a stop to throw a target. This is controlled by the interrupter. What I have observed is that a Pat Trap will oscillate to the magnet limit switch at which time the interrupter will stop the oscillation. However, because of the movement of the trap having received the signal to change direction from the magnet limit switch, it won't actually stop on the magnet but will appear to "rebound" about quarter of an inch from the extreme angle which is limited by the magnet. It will then sit in this position until the target is called for. Each eighth of an inch on the magnet switch bar represents about 1° of angle. Consequently, those targets are going out at about 15°.

    However, sometimes the trap will actually throw a target on the fly when it touches the extreme angle magnet. This is solely dependent upon if the shooter calls for the target just as the trap is approaching the magnet switch. Bad luck. Obviously, if the machine only threw a hard angle on a convergence of these events, there would seldom be any targets thrown even approaching the maximum angle. This is why the machine stops as close to the maximum angle as possible and waits for a call. However, due to the mechanics of the machine it would take a second set of magnets to get the machine to actually stop on exactly the maximum angle.

    Recently, we installed three half-inch rebar stakes in concrete 10 yards from our trap houses, one centered and the other two on the left and right minimum angles. We slip half-inch, 10 foot metal electrical conduit sections over the stakes. With all three stakes in place it is easy to not only set the target height using the center stake, it is easy to make sure that the field is square by watching the angle targets. When the machine throws a target on the fly just as it touches the magnet, the target hits the angle stake. However, the majority of what we would consider a hard angle, one in which the machine is actually sitting at rest, the target flies inside the stake about 4 - 6 inches
     
  8. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    BIG DON I have had enough of your bs comments, if you would read the post carefully and dilligently you might get some smarts.

    Neil I agreed with you on the scores, I disagree on the quantity of them, there are nore now than there ever was.

    This post was in response JBROOKS post on a previuos thread, I was just asking TRAP MECHANICS if they had seen or heard of this happening.

    NEIL WINSTON I assumed if it the trap bounced back it had RUBBER SNUBBERS, now since you cleared that up that point is MUTE.

    Why can't a person post something onhere and get good clarification without BS
    LIKE BIG DON puts out.

    I felt this was a legitimate question and was wanting proffessional answers by
    by TRAP MECHANICS or from PAT TRAPS.

    BID DON I would appreciate you not respond to my posts, then we will all be happy campers, concentrate on your WOLVERINEs.

    BID DON I don't believe you spend much time in the trap houses.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  9. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    JBROOKS thanks for your input, that is what I was wondering, and your response was on target and excellent.

    Thanks

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    As I read your post, jbrooks,

    "What I have observed is that a Pat Trap will oscillate to the magnet limit switch at which time the interrupter will stop the oscillation. However, because of the movement of the trap having received the signal to change direction from the magnet limit switch, it won't actually stop on the magnet but will appear to "rebound" about quarter of an inch from the extreme angle which is limited by the magnet. It will then sit in this position until the target is called for."

    I wonder if you are actually seeing what you think you are.

    OK, the trap is reaching the end of its stroke

    Reaching....reaching...

    And there it is, stopping because the interrupter kicked in. Then you see what you do - it returns a bit, stops, fires.

    My question is, how do you know it stopped because of the interrupter, instead of just reversing and then the interrupter working?

    I mean if what you are looking at is just stopping, why do you think the interrupter is involved at all (until later)?

    Neil
     
  11. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    Gosh Gary all I did was ask a question. Sorry but your post appeared to be another lame attempt at putting the ATA down and continue to stir the 2 hole - 3 hole debate. If your skin is that tender I suggest you bathe in saltwater. Speaking of BS reread some of you own past posts and this is your 3rd one on similar topic, all going at the same time.

    You might be surprised how much time I spend or spent in a trap house.

    Have a good day.

    Don
     
  12. Nascar Mike

    Nascar Mike TS Member

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    Hey Gary, Have you noticed if these "hard angles" were thrown when the machine in still moving? Another thing to consider is that fact that the switches are magnetic they collect metal fillings and become less sensitive. You might want to try and simply clean them with contact cleaner and wipe them with a clean rag to remove any metal dust or fillings. I'm not a pat trap mechanic, I just have a mechanical backround Nascar Mike
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I know what I am seeing because it is consistent. You do the math, Neil. How heavy is a Pat trap fully loaded with 500+ targets? You think they stop instantly? Push the "Manual" button while the trap is moving and see how fast it stops.

    If you are right, then for some reason the interrupter would have to fire and the machine come to a complete stop in that 1/4 of an inch after reversing. Obviously, if you want a machine that delivers some type of fair distribution of hard angle targets, you have to make the machine stop at the limits and wait for a call. The only way the machine knows it at that limit is via the convergence of the magnets. While the electronic signal is light speed, arresting the oscillation isn't.

    "I mean if what you are looking at is just stopping, why do you think the interrupter is involved at all"

    Because when an interrupter burns up, the machine doesn't stop?

    Hey, I didn't design the thing and the precise electronic and mechanical functionality of exactly why the machine stops where it does is immaterial to the question that was raised. I just watch what they do and what I described is what they do and by the way, I don't consider myself a Pat trap mechanic.

    What is material to the question that was raised on the other thread is that the vast majority of what you think is a target thrown at the machine's right or left maximum set limit, isn't.
     
  14. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    hmb -

    Based on all of your postings about the patent unfairness and general disregard/lack of rules by clubs holding ATA shoots, is it safe for me to assume that you no longer (and probably never did) actually shoot registered targets?

    Would it also be safe to assume that you are just on here preaching your gospel to try to save the rest of us innocents that don't know any better? Sounds like a mighty Democratic thing to do if you ask me.

    Scott
     
  15. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Banned User Banned

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    As far as the Pat Trap stopping on a dime, they have a very powerful hydraulic system, and WILL stop on a dime and give change.

    If you look at the system that starts and stops the Pat from oscillating, it depends how the system is working. It does seem that at times it throws shallow targets, and at times it will only throw extreme angles.

    They may not perform at 100% in cold weather, and may increase target speed very slightly during the day in hot weather, but, all in all, they are good machines, long lasting, easy to set, service, and repair. :^)
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    OK, JB, say we accept that the turret takes time to stop which I don't much believe and the manual button is no test of, by the way.

    It is equally likely that the interrupter will kick in just somewhat before the reversal as right at the reversal, right? Well, in that case, the trap will throw the greatest angle think we must agree. In fact, if the trap moves after the interrupter, that's the only way you can get the max angle.

    Assuming the trap doesn't know where the turret is, why does not the "just-before" case (throwing the max angle) happen just as often as the "at the same time?"

    By the way again, the fact that this may be consistent in appearance does not mean anything. Since this a mechanical device with no free will, _everything_ it does will be consistent.

    Neil
     
  17. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Banned User Banned

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    "By the way again, the fact that this may be consistent in appearance does not mean anything. Since this a mechanical device with no free will, _everything_ it does will be consistent."

    What Neil said. :^)
     
  18. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Scott,

    I like fairness in competition. I like the rules to be enforced and all competitors to be treated the same.

    If trap machines are not working properly they should be repaired or replaced. Good targets will increase participation in trapshooting events. HMB
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    "It is equally likely that the interrupter will kick in just somewhat before the reversal as right at the reversal, right?"

    It sometimes does and the trap stops before it gets to the limit switch and throws something less than a 17 degree target


    "Assuming the trap doesn't know where the turret is"

    It doesn't except when it hits the limit switch at which time it does know thanks to the electrical signal from the switch. At that instant it is signaled to stop. It just can't stop on the switch, because, with all due respect to SC, it can't stop on a dime because hydraulics, while powerful are not instaneous.

    Reponder this from above: "Obviously, if you want a machine that delivers some type of fair distribution of hard angle targets, you have to make the machine stop at the limits and wait for a call. The only way the machine knows it at that limit is via the convergence of the magnets. While the electronic signal is light speed, arresting the oscillation isn't."

    "By the way again, the fact that this may be consistent in appearance does not mean anything. Since this a mechanical device with no free will, _everything_ it does will be consistent."

    You make my point. It hits the switch, stop signal is received, and it stops after 1/4 inch of travel which make it appear to "rebound" from the maximum angle and it throws about a 15 degree target. It will do this consistently, except for the few times it gets a call when it is right on the switch.

    If anyone wants a practical demonstration of this, we can each take a stack of $5.00 bills and sit in the house while a 5 man squad shoots. I'll give you a five when the target throws on the switch and you give me a five when the trap "rebounds" and stops until it gets the next call. Bring lots of fives.
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    JBrooks- I have seen what you describe as "rebound" but I am not sure it is actually a rebound. To really get at this question, we need to eliminate the interrupter. If everything is working correctly, the instant that the limit switch touches the magnet, the machine should smoothly reverse. Then the number of extreme left angles should equal 1/2 of the number of straight aways from post three and the total of the extreme left and right angles should equal the number of straight aways.

    If we then apply the principle of inertia, the very short time required to stop the machine and start it again, would slightly increase the time spent at the extreme angles making the total of the left and right angles slightly greater than the number of straight aways.

    To confirm this with field observations would be very difficult. It is not easy to distinguish an extreme left angle from a nearly extreme left angle.

    With the older Winchester traps, again with the interrupter disables, the movement of the trap would be fastest when it is set to throw a straight away and as it approaches the left or right angle extreme, the speed at which the machine would slow down. This is a result of the push rod pivoting from an off set hole in a circular disk. The older traps should then throw more angles than straight away targets.

    We need to get zzt to do some math for us. Calculating time/speed of rotation from a push rod in an off set hole in a circular disk is a problem I do not want to do. Possibly, many years ago I knew how to solve this problem in some class, but today, I don't.

    Pat Ireland
     
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