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Do it yourself gun fitting....

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by blade819, Dec 9, 2011.

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  1. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    Buy Rollin Oswalds book.

    blade819
     
  2. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    well, 6 years of trying, then I walked into Wenigs at the Grand American, tried 3 of 6 H.C. style lh stocks they had till I found the one that kissed me in all the right places....

    If I had done that from the beginning, I would have saved thousands of dollars...




    [​IMG]
     
  3. ramorton

    ramorton TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Big M,

    Could you send me a photo of the down pitch on your stock. I just got a HC stock from Wenig to try on my 10RS. I spent three days with Bill at Wenig at the Southwestern Grand last yr. and never could get the stock out of my face. This was with a Kolar and the yr. before, did it with a K-8o. Never could get the stock out of my face on the K-80 either. We tried everything. Maybe this stock will work.. Bill made both the other stocks from scratch. I am left handed also.

    They were kicking me to the extent of bleeding.

    Thanks,

    Roy
     
  4. chipking

    chipking TS Member

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    NSXER Here goes. Purchased Alfermann #185. It came with s Gracoil adj LOP and butt plate and a ebony roll over 4 way adjustable comb. Fixed 100% high rib 34" 38 thousandths constriction choke.

    1. Removed and replaced the recoil pad with a Kick-EEZ rocker (1 1/8 thick). (my personal preference) and adjusted the butt plate so that a mount with eyes closed gave me me a straight vertical barrel rib.(no cant)

    2. Adjusted the LOP (in a tee shirt since that is the way I shoot most of the year) to where the gun mount felt natural (arms comfortable not over extended or bent too much)

    3. Adjusted the comb to give me a straight down the rib with the beads stacked. Mounted the gun with eyes closed then opened to confirm.

    The above steps were done before I ever took the gun to the range.

    4. (not recommended and dumb so you may want to skip this step) Took the gun out the next day and shot a registered 100 bird handicap. Very windy and gusty day. Shot 89 for 100 and won the handicaps.

    5. Range time. Patterned the gun to make sure it shot where it was pointed (35 yards). Then locked the trap on straightaways and shot 5 from post 3. I was shooting the bottoms off the target. Took a break and moved the comb 1/16 inch up ( I use 1/16 inch thick nylon washers and alternate black and white so I know how much I am changing). Went back to post 3 and shot 5 more better but still looked to me to be a little low. Another break and another washer up. Back to post 3 and the breaks looked good. Another break then 1 more washer up and the breaks are starting to push a lot of bird pieces down so I removed the last washer.

    6. With the trap still set on straightaways I shot a round starting on post 3 then 4 then 2 then 5 then 1. I noted that I was throwing a lot of pieces up from posts 1 and 5 so I put the last washer back in and repeated. The breaks looked good and when I missed I knew exactly why. 1 lazy gun where I shot without ever catching up to the bird and a head lift. Went home. With the gun mounted normally I now see about 1/4 inch between front and mid bead.

    7. Next day shot a round of 16 yards and then a round of 25 yards. Misses were mine and the gun felt natural. Replaced the 1 1/8 Kick-EEZ with a 3/4 Kick-eez and shot a couple more rounds with my cold weather coat on and they went well.

    Since then the only adjustment I have made was to increase the tension on the Gracoil because the previous owner had it set so light that it would bottom out even with 1oz @1145 fps Loads.

    Is this the right way Heck I don't know all I know is that it has worked for me every time I have bought a used gun and set it up FOR ME.

    --- Chip King ---
     
  5. open choke

    open choke TS Member

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    I have heard about the shoot straight away mentor and watch the breaks. But there is to much room for human error IMO.

    At least with a pattern board and and barrel tripod rest. That cuts down the human error to some degree IMO
     
  6. bjk1972

    bjk1972 Member

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    I'm glad you posted this. I'm throwing around the idea of a custom stock or maybe possibly fitting myself and having a stock made after "my pattern". I've read alot of well known stockmakers theories, and think with some patience and trial and error I can get close.I still have reservations though, and would like to see others results.
     
  7. SMOKEIT

    SMOKEIT Well-Known Member

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    .......Shooting straight aways from post 3 does not tell me much . I automatically learn whether to cover the bird or how much to float the bird for good breaks..I think it is better to shoot 10 from post 1, 5 from post 3 and 10 from post 5. Shoot 4 boxes like this, watch the breaks and you will get a idea of what adjustments may be required....SMOKIT
     
  8. mike campbell

    mike campbell Active Member

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    "I'm throwing around the idea of a custom stock or maybe possibly fitting myself and having a stock made after "my pattern"."

    That's the way I restocked a half dozen Fox SxS's for myself, and assisted a half-dozen others....


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    While dialing in the stock patterns I shot a couple dozen paper bulls and a couple thousand clays, then sent them out for duplication.

    For my trap gun I could have done the same, but I bought it used with an adjustable comb. After a few thousand rounds and being satisfied with the dims, I ordered a Wenig New American with an extra 1/8" on the comb, knowing I'd have ample wood to work with (remove). A couple more thousand rounds with some rasping and sanding and I had it nailed. No more allen wrenches.


    [​IMG]


    Bottom line, I work with a pattern stock until I'm 100% satisfied with the fit. I don't even know, nor need to know, the "numbers." I close my eyes, mount the gun, open my master eye and see exactly the right picture, 101 times in a row. When I can do that, I remove the center bead and shoot with both eyes open, never having to check the bead.
     
  9. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Steve if there's a pro out there telling you he can fit you over the internet he's no pro or just lying for the money.

    The process of gunfitting can be quits straight forward and simple for some; others its complicated and even a bit of trial and error.

    First your best served by going to some one recognized as a gunfitter. Some one like Dennis Devault or my self who make their living both fitting and building your stock.

    If you want the do it your self process here is some advise. Get Rollin's book and read it 5 times then give it to a friend whom you trust and have them read it 5 more times. Now your ready to start.

    First is observing the gun as it currently is set up. Have some one watch our mount. Watch how your face sits on the stock how much cant there is. Is the cant Grip or shoulder induced. Make adjustments.

    To the Pattern plate. Move the impact by adjustments until it is ideal.
    Does the gun kick twist bite recoil in any particularly undesirable way. If so make more adjustments. Shoot again and adjust until as perfect as you can make it. Do this until your satisfied and then after a break start over if it isn't exactly what it was before.

    Shoot targets now are they being hit in an undesirable way if so more adjustments. If your shooting high or low on targets you must decide if it is the point-ability of the stock or the comb dimensions. When referring to point-ability of the stock this is primarily pitch but can encompass other things as well.

    Once everything is perfect in your opinions then return to the plate just to make sure. take a break and repeat if the results aren't exactly the same start over.

    I have to comment about this Harlan Campbell Stock everyone is talking about. I think there's good evidence that both Dennis Devault and myself were making this kind of stock long before Mr Campbell JR. started Shooting his K-80 everyone talks about. Indeed Dennis Built Harlan's first stocks: A mach one and an Mx-3 special if I remember. They were custom fit for him not a generic off the shelf stock.

    When your looking at this type of stock which is more correctly designed for trap shooting you need to understand that having this type of stock built for your physique is much more critical for your best performance. Subtle changes in grip, pitch, cant of pad will greatly effect performance.
    Joe
     
  10. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    I purchased a Gaesar Guerini Summit Sporting 20 gauge. I put a Gracoil with a Kickeez on the un-cut stock to achieve a 15-7/8" LOP (all of my guns have a 16" +-1/4" LOP). I shot it on a pattern board at 16 yards with a full choke. The gun shot 2" high and 1-1/2" left.

    I called Jim Greenwood and we determined how to bend the stock to make it hit dead on (it's a sporting clays gun and I like them dead on). I sent the gun to Jim and he bent the stock. It now shoots dead on for me.

    You can calculate how much to bend the stock by measuring the distance between your eye and the muzzle. The ratio of this distance to 16 yards determines how much to bend the stock (at the point on the comb where your face contacts the stock). Translate that back to the heel and that is what the stock bender needs. The old rule of thumb of 1/16" per 1" at 16 yards needs to be tweaked for 32" barrels and a long LOP.

    Jim Skeel
     
  11. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    I find this comment from gunfitter particularly interesting.

    "Does the gun kick twist bite recoil in any particularly undesirable way."

    The good part, for me, is: 'kick twist bite recoil'. This makes me want to go out and get a decent video camera so I can check this. Been wanting one anyway.

    Recoil up is going to come up into my cheek which is bad. Twisted recoil is another matter. I suppose no twist in desired and twist away from your face - I don't know, but twist into the face would be worst. Any further comments, Joe?
     
  12. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    You certainly don't want a stock bucking in any direction at the shot except for a tad rearward. If it torques away from your cheek lock, a second bird on doubles will seem impossible! Upward movement is usually a pitch problem but that may be compounded with the distance between the shoulder lock spot and the comb height to your eyes pupil. Too much off-set or cast or not enough of either plays a part also. There's a lot of variables that must be considered as Joe G. mentioned above. There's stock whittlers/makers, then there's a few that can do both. You can be much more consistent with a fitted to you stock on a cheap POS shotgun than you ever can with an ill fitting high dollar gun/stock that doesn't fit! Most trap shooters are adept at fitting themselves to about any stock configuration and call it a good fit, not even close to being true though and it shows up in their lack of consistency in breaking long runs.

    Hap
     
  13. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Gunfitter, you are correct. You and Devault did indeed develop the HC stock configuration. WENIG chose to have multiple variations available for trial.

    Seeing you or Dennis is always an option for a well fit stock.
     
  14. ouch

    ouch Member

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    Purchase Rollins book. It will educate you on what to look for,Try and expect in gun fitting. Then if you try fitting it yourself or go to Dennis,Joe or ? you will still have some knowledge what they are doing ect. Richard
     
  15. blade819

    blade819 Well-Known Member

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    I happen to have the original (not rewrite) Rollin Oswald book that could be bought for the right price.

    blade819
     
  16. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    The link above is an earlier thread on stock fitting. Since I am a bit terminology challenged, I assume an H C stock for (Harlan Campbell) is like the Kolar 'Twisted Sister' and provides for the head up gun mount. Being a devout cheapskate on that earlier thread I rationalized that the status quo is OK for me and I won't be able to get the head up gun mount without a new high rib gun.
     
  17. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    I do not quite understand the central theme of the thread. Most shooters (guessing 80% at least) cna pick up a 1100 trap, or a BT99 and fit themselves to the stock. Yes, some will have a tighter face than others and yes those are not "heads-up" style stocks. But a lot of shooters are busting them all with these standard guns. the vast majority of shooters can adjust to a standard 14.5" LOP and a comb drop of 1-3/8". they figure it out on how to align themselves properly to break ALL the targets. Yes there is a learning and adjustment curve and time required. So? Name me any sport using equipment that does not require adapting.
     
  18. joe kuhn

    joe kuhn Furry Lives Matter TS Supporters

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    If you take any time off or you slow down, you have to go through that relearning process and if you don't get back to shooting enough you get stuck like the vast majority of shooters that I see - they don't change anything and their scores don't change either. So it's much better to go heads up from the start, ideally, and get back to whacking right away.
     
  19. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    MIA, not so fast there. Tiger and I were playing golf together and he offered to let me try his clubs. No matter whatever I tried I couldn't hit squat. Finally, I gave up and told him they just won't work for me.



    He said "of course not! Your left handed "
     
  20. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Big M. yes. humor is the only way to go.This is a "manufactured" subject. Heads up or screwed in, they both work.

    One slight serious note. I know 3 guys that shoot heads up and the stock shifts on their face on every shot.

    So, the question to you heads up guys is how do you stay anchored? Adn purchasing a $2000 to $5000 stock is not an option to most shooters.
    So how is the movement on the stock overcome? Eh?

    Joe K. You've seen this pic. What's wrong with this style? Looks fine to me.


    [​IMG]
     
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