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Do competitors sandbag?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by yakimaman, Jun 6, 2011.

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  1. yakimaman

    yakimaman Well-Known Member

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    I'm new to this game and am probably not seeing something but I was at the Buckeye Classic for a couple of days just to watch and to pick up some things from vendors. I am a new ATA member and will shoot my first registered targets this week - and it will take me 1,000 singles before I get classified by ATA. But, with my experience .... I'm a D Class shooter right now - would have to shoot penalty B if I go one of the big shoots. That's ok - I understand and will get my required targets in before next year. So, today I pull up the scores from last week to look at how the D shooters did and I see 93, 99, 98, and 95 and the Championship at 192. Did these shooter just happen to have a real good week or is the average ATA says is D Class (below 88%) just wrong?
     
  2. sliverbulletexpress

    sliverbulletexpress TS Member

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    It's called target management in ATA.
     
  3. scott calhoun

    scott calhoun Well-Known Member

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    Yaki -

    Take a look at the payouts for D class for the Buckeye Classic and you can decide for yourself if it makes any sense at all to try to sandbag to win D class singles at any shoot.

    The reality is that if you put enough lower-class shooters in the same place at the same time, someone is going to break a score above their average. After all, if you never broke a score above your average how would anyone ever make it to the higher classes?

    Scott
     
  4. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Yes, some people sandbag. It happens and cannot be controlled with current ATA rules.

    But sometimes people have one or two rounds that skew their average. For example, my average going into the Buckeye was 97+%. I shot an 87 and followed that with an 84. My worst scores in over three years. I have some medical issues I am dealing with and I also made some gun changes that bit me. It will look to some (that do not know me)that I am a "target manager" but sometimes crap happens.

    Don Verna
     
  5. Jim Bradbury

    Jim Bradbury Member

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    Yakimaman,
    Last year my first year of compitition targets I was doing really weel in August-September and even into October. I was 1/2 of a percent away from moving into "A" class. In September at the Big Yak, I shot a 99 on Saturday and backed it up Sunday with a 95. Sometime in November the wheels fell off the bus and I have yet to find them. My singles scores have dropped into the low 80's. I did about a month ago shoot a 94 at Poulsbo. Yesterday at Black Diamond I shot a 68 at single was so mad I wanted to wrap my gun around a light pole. My confidence is somewhere with the bus wheels. I had at least a dozen people come up to me yesterday wanting to know what the hell happened to me. They all know I can shoot better than I did yesterday. I am beyond frustrated, but I to could someday pull my head out of my hind end and start shooting good again and I would be labled a sandbagger. I am not saying that there are those that do not intentionally do it, but the way that the payouts are I doubt it. Beleive me I for one want to shoot good again, I know I can do better and cannot figure out what I am doing wrong. At one point yesterday, I was ready to walk off the line in the middle of an event get in my truck and go home.
     
  6. Barkingspider21

    Barkingspider21 Member

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    Ignore those who sandbag, enter any event with sole intent to win. Develope an attitude that will take you there. Attempt to win all events, it may not happen that way but sooner or later you will start to be on top of the pile now and then. PRACTICE,PRATICE PRACTICEN and remember, if it aint broke , dont fix it, find what works for you and use it.. Good luck. Woody Sullivan
     
  7. Kevin Nelson

    Kevin Nelson Member

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    Shoot against your self and try to better your last score, dont worry about anyone else and it will all fall into place.
     
  8. pigeon101

    pigeon101 Member

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    You can call it sandbagging, target management, just plain lucky or having a great day. This is what I will add to the money bowl.
    2003 PA State shoot my fisrt state shoot. I shot the summer league that year and the summer league the year before that at my local club.
    I had broken a couple 25's straight at the league shoots. never broke a 50 straight. Had some butterflies goin to the state shoot. Focused, very focused on the line that day. Shooting championship singles 200 bird event.
    the 1st trap I run it 25 straight. The 2nd trap run it 50 straight. wow neverthought that would happen. 3rd trap run those ones. last trap knees are shakin, sweating, gun is heavier than hell, ran the trap broke 100 straight.
    The second 100 bird event miss my first target out. finished with a 91 the second hundred. a total of 191 for the champion event.
    Now the league I shot the year before counted towards my minimum requiered targets. that put me in D Class. I don't think D class shooters target manage, or sandbag. I think when you are that focused and are in the ZONE.
    The gun points and you break targets.


    Jason in PA
     
  9. hrosik123

    hrosik123 Member

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    Call it what you may. My outlook is this is a sport if integrity. You either have it or you don't. Shoot for your own satisfaction and don't worry about others. Wether your'e D class or AAA, if you go out with the mindset that you need to break em all and do your best you can't loose. Apply your seven P's and you'll be just fine. Good luck Chuck Hrosik
     
  10. pdq

    pdq Member

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    Yes, unless you can post either an intentional -- or a lucky -- 98, 99, or 100, your chances of winning anything are pretty slim. Scores in Trap & Field make this very obvious.

    Don't let it get to you. Just try to constantly improve. Just don't plan to win anything until your a AA level shooter, regardless of what class you are in.

    Just the way it is, can't let it get to you. Everyone gripes about how it's broke (do a search of the archives using the word "sandbag" and you'll be reading for hours or maybe days), but I haven't heard a workable solution yet, or said another way, one that the ATA would actually consider putting in place.

    Pete
     
  11. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    If you are going to strain your brain over what someone else shot you might as well stay on the bench. The larger the shoot the higher the scores will be in D and C class, so pack your A game and get some targets under your belt. Remember class equals an average, that means high scores vs low scores equals an "average". Don't join the few who cry when someone excceds the class average and wins. Winners are not average but those that excel at what they do, sounds like life a littel bit doesn't it???

    Don
     
  12. smsnyder

    smsnyder Well-Known Member

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    (Im a reverse sandbagger.) I was at the 19 and had a hard time getting squads. So i asked ata to put me at the the 20. Done ok there. LOL
     
  13. Old Cowboy

    Old Cowboy Active Member

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    At any large shoot the class winners will have scores at least two classes above their average. Likely NOT sandbagging, it's just the "every now and then a blind squirrel finds an acorn" factor. Put enuf' "D" class shooters out there and a few of 'em are gonna shoot "A" & "B" scores on any given day.

    John C. Saubak
     
  14. Rastoff

    Rastoff Active Member

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    Some one once said that they didn't want to play in the ATA because you couldn't win by shooting your average. Personally, I don't want to play in any competition where an average score has even the slightest chance of winning. If you want to win at a shoot, you should have to shoot better than your average.

    Any shooter, who can lift his gun, is capable of shooting a 100. In a large shoot, it should be a higher than average score that wins. I'm not surprised that one out of 100 D Class shooters will shoot a 100 straight.
     
  15. handlepuller

    handlepuller Well-Known Member

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    I think at big shoots there will always be someone that has a good day.

    A "competitor" would never sandbag. In my opinion a competitor is a person that is always going to try to break every target he can. I guess I'm not sure what noun I'd give to sandbaggers.
     
  16. Border Bandit

    Border Bandit Well-Known Member

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    The competitors, as handlepuller correctly pointed out, don't need to sandbag because they're already at the 27 and "B" to "AAA" where 100's are the norm at bigger shoots. They've already got all the buckles, plates, hockey pucks, leather bags and bric-brack in their closets they'll ever want, and are playing the game for scores, All American points and State Team status, not to mention the biggest rush of all, for some, the shoot off. Forget the options and concentrate on your shooting. If you want to throw away your money, especially on 16yd targets, just make out and hand a check to Mr. Harrison, saving time for the guys running the shoot and at the end of the year, you'll be way ahead in the wallet and frustration department.

    As I see it now, at least....mike
     
  17. metal1

    metal1 TS Member

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    my goal at every practice and/or comp i try to shoot my best,and every once in awile i come up hoa or class winner ,i know there are sb`s shooting against me and you can figure out who they are then the game becomes to beat them ..jeff
     
  18. semperfi909

    semperfi909 Well-Known Member

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    If you are going to play a game where pre-pubescent female children can post a perfect game then you have no need to worry about sandbaggers. Just like US skeet. So add in the "blind squirrel" factor and you have a couple choices:

    learn to get good scores

    get over it and be OK w/ losing

    find a new game
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    There are a few thing to remember when it comes to D class. Depending on the number of classes in the shoot The average for D class changes in a three class shoot there is no D class in a four class shoot D class is under 89. In a five class shoot under 88 and in a six class shoot under 90.

    Just like a short yardage shooter winning a handicap event it isn't common but it is possible. The same with shooting a big score in singles in D class it isn't common but it is possible. The shooter is also only competing against those in his class not the entire field of shooters as in handicap. If the scores weren't in a class system they wouldn't in most case mean any more than handicap score that don't win. Any shooter can win on any given day whether it is Class or handicap.

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. plaw

    plaw Active Member

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    You might call them sandbaggers,or you might call them target managers, the proper word is Cheaters!!
     
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