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Dished Crimps?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by bolt-action, Jan 29, 2010.

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  1. bolt-action

    bolt-action TS Member

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    I am working on a 1 1/8 oz light target load in Federal (Estate) hulls with 700x powder. The load recipe that I want calls for a 12S3 wad (or clone). After adjusting the crimp dies several times, I still come up with dished crimps. 700x powder is very dense, and does not fill up the case as much as some of the other powders. I have a lot of this powder (as it is my favorite for Remington and Winchester hulls) and would very much like to find a suitable load for it in Federal hulls.

    How much will the dished crimps effect the load performance? There is no hole in the middle big enough for shot to come out. Instead of being flat, the crimp has a "caved-in" look to it. When you shake a shell, the shot has a rattle to it, but not much. Will these loads shoot consistent? Will they pattern OK? Any advice is greatly appreciated.
     
  2. Bernie K

    Bernie K Member

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    Bolt-action, as Ross has stated go to the one ounce wad it will not effect the load at all and is long enough to take up the extra space in the Estate hulls I have shot them for years and find no differance. Bernie
     
  3. wayneo

    wayneo Active Member

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    I have used 1 ounce Winchester wads (or clones) for 1-1/8 ounce loads in Federal cases for years with Red Dot and 700X. Makes a perfect crimp. Even though they are for tapered hulls, they work perfectly. And there is load data for this combination in Hodgdon and Alliant's reloading manuals. I've never had any powder migration, or a significant drop in pressure using this combination. Wayne
     
  4. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    Bolt..

    I load (and have loaded) thousands of Estates and Top Gun hulls over the last few years with excellent results. Both 1 oz and 1-1/8 oz. loads are reloaded using 700X powder and a Hornady 366 loader. When I first started loading these hulls, I too experienced the same crimp problems as you.

    What I have found to work for me and the reloader is to use Federal components as the hulls are Federal.

    I had to keep tweaking the final crimp stage until I was satisfied. This took awhile and many failed crimps until I got it right. So don't give up, keep tweaking and you'll end up with a great looking and properly crimped reload.

    I presently use only 2 different loads (Estate and/or Top Gun hulls):

    1 oz. of hard shot, 17 grs. of 700X, Fed. 209A primer, 12S0 (or clone) wad. 1200 fps. (16's & doubles).

    1-1/8 oz. of hard shot, 19.5 grs. of 700X, Fed. 209A primer, 12S3 (or clone) wad. 1250 fps (caps).

    Curt
     
  5. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    flincher100.... THE TRUTH?? You should be VERY careful in your advice here. A dished crimp is NOT ok, nor is it desireable. You are correct in that it makes a stronger crimp, but, by doing so, it also raises chamber pressures, sometimes considerably. That is NOT a good thing. The correct answer here is to use a 1oz. wad, such as a Green Duster, Downrange XL-1, etc. to obtain the correct crimp while still maintaining correct pressures, or adjust the crimping station to produce a proper crimp. A dished crimp is not acceptable... Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  6. $$$SHTR

    $$$SHTR Member

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    Claybuster now makes 2 different wads just for these straight walled cases. They are CB 6100-12 and CB 6118-12. They also have loading data in each bag. I've used both and they work perfect. I load lots of the cheap throw-aways one time and chuck'em. Perfect flat crimp every time. On these cheap hulls you have to be careful during the crimp process as the plastic is very thin and the hull will buckle quite easly. I start a new load on a Pacific 266 (single stage) and turn the crimp die way up so at first it doesn't even crimp the shell. With a single stage loader I can keep the shell in the crimp die many times. I slowly adjust the crimp die down until I get the crimp I'm looking for. Once I adjust the crimp, I can load any brand of the cheap straight hulled shells.

    By-the-way, I can run them thru the Spolar with no adjustments at all. Just change the bushings and go.

    Tomas
     
  7. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    flincher..... What do you think causes a dished crimp? It is because the crimp sets too deep, forcing the petals of the crimp down,, because of lack of components, and allows the crimp to dish. Is this enough to cause higher pressures? I don't know, but, I do know a reload is not supposed to have a dished crimp. I'm not going to get into a confrontation with you over this. You see it your way, and I see it mine. By your own statement you say you have read that a deep crimp can raise chamber pressures significantly. You can reload any way you please and it doesn't bother me at all. What I'm saying is a dished crimp is not acceptable, "to me", based on the reasons I stated above, and by reading, probably, the same information you have read. I also feel it is not in our best interest, as shooters, to advocate, or condone, a reloading practice that is counter-intuitive to good reloading practices. I think a better question would be to ask where, if at all, it is written that a dished crimp is "desireable", or even acceptable? In the vein of trying to keep it "real" for those that don't have the experience we do, I try to give the best information available, on what I know to be true, rather than conjecture on my part. If I offended you, I apologize, that was not my intent... Dan Thome (Trap2)

    Edited: Page 23 of MEC's 9000G manual makes a very clear reference to a shell with a dished in crimp as a crimp that is "DEEP". That is: one resulting from inadequate components.
     
  8. SeldomShoots

    SeldomShoots Active Member

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    If I am in a hurry and don't want to change wads or my set up, I put a cherio or 2 on top of the lead before the first crimp. It works surprisingly well, creating just enough fill prevent the crimp from caving in, and I figure its not a whole heck of lot different than buffer.

    Anybody else ever use cherios?

    John E.
     
  9. bridgetoofar

    bridgetoofar TS Member

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    Few real reloaders use Cheerios. Real reloaders use Puffed Wheat!
     
  10. Ahab

    Ahab Well-Known Member

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    A real trapshooter will use a spent primer under the shot, because they are free!
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    But the steel used to make primers is harder than the steel used to make barrels.

    One can use Cheerios to fill the shell or he can use the correct components to fill the shell.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Check out Gualandi wads. They have several different lengths of the same wad so it is easy to get the right fit. Their wads are designed for straight wall hulls. They work very well in the thin wall hulls like Estate. Graf & Sons has a good selection of Gualandi wads.

    You might try the GU-1222 which is Gualandi's Super G in 22mm length. If that is not long enough try the GU-1225 which is 25mm long.

    Gualandi wads have a collapsable section between the shot cup and the base that collapses easily to allow for a good crimp.

    Jim Skeel
     
  13. cubancigar2000

    cubancigar2000 Well-Known Member

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    I am a coco puff fan. Cheerios dont shoot the same. I think Dan is probably right and I have a lot of respect for him. I however have shot dished crimps for years paying no attention to it other than if shot spills. I would like to hear what Pat or Neil say on this. Maybe I have just been lucky. I looked at some Active factory loads that I have had for many years. Some trap loads and some 3" hvy loads and they are dished right from the factory
     
  14. whiz white

    whiz white Strong Supporter of Trapshooting Banned

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    Knwing your reloader would help, but I'd raise the depth at which you are inserting yor wad.

    Whiz
     
  15. oskerspap12

    oskerspap12 Active Member

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    Corn Flakes always worked for me(in a bowl with milk) LOL Leave the grain out of your loads, and find the proper wad that works!
    D.P.Reynolds
     
  16. VNVET

    VNVET Member

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    If the wad was not seated as deep in the hull and therefore the powder would NOT be compressed by the wad...........would that present a safety issue with inconsistant pressure and velocity? I know that rifle and pistol ammo does not compress the powder and I don't see where a shotshell would be any different. I've often wondered about this.

    Jim
     
  17. Trap2

    Trap2 Well-Known Member

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    flincher100.. I yield to your information. Well done. That being said, however, I will still continue to reload my shells with the CORRECT components for the load I want. I don't want any dished crimps, corn flakes, coca puffs, primers, popcorn, etc. in any of my reloads simply because there is no reason for it if you are reloading correctly.... Just my preference.. Dan Thome (Trap2)
     
  18. jrdlanes

    jrdlanes Member

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    Cuban - You have taken reloading to the current political correctness of these times. Reloading segregation. LOL John in Iowa

    an aside - Wouldn't using a spent primer as filler defeat the purpose of a lighter load (1 oz or 7/8 oz) and/or exceed an ATA maximum acceptable load weight? Just something to consider.
     
  19. pufftarget

    pufftarget Active Member

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    Depending how bad the dishing is you might want to set the crimp start down a bit to start the crimp tighter. This will sometimes relieve the dishing.

    Chuck
     
  20. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Dished crimps may not cause any performance problems but they don't prevent any problems either. What I mean by that is if you only load with components that correctly fill the specific hull you are using then every shell you make should come off the press looking perfect. Anything else is an immediate indicator that you have a problem - inconsistent powder drop for instance, or perhaps a cocked wad or maybe the shot drop tube plugged - whatever. But the important thing is that you can detect these problems as soon as they occur and make corrections before you load a bunch of junk ammo. If you get use to accepting dished crimps then a lot of real problems can go undetected until you are out there calling for targets.
     
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