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Different Averages by Zone for Handicap Reductions

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by GoldEx, Jun 7, 2008.

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  1. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    I just got a reduction in the mail. I live in the Central Zone in MI. My current average for my last 1000 handicap targets was 89.6. If you throw out the one low score of 80, my average was over 90%. Why do different zones have different averages for a reduction review? Are the targets that much easier to break in my zone than other places that only require an 87% average?

    Jeff
     
  2. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    I guess targets are harder to hit in Western PA than they are in Ohio. I have also noticed that the targets are way harder to hit in Central Florida than they were in Vandalia Ohio.
     
  3. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    oboy
     
  4. bas

    bas Member

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    The break points are different by Zone: Eastern and Southern Zones - 89%
    Central, Southwestern and Western - 90%. Page 65 in the September 1, 2007 Rule Book.
     
  5. tomk2

    tomk2 Member

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    One could conclude that Central, Southwestern, and Western shooters are better shooters. Thus, if you can't maintain the higher average, you need to step up to be more competetive.

    Or one could conclude that there are more sandbaggers in the Eastern and Southern zones, and the lower averages required to recieve a reduction are to make it harder for the sandbaggers to get a reduction.

    Or there is also the possibility that due to the differing number of shooters, targets thrown, scores being shot, and weather conditions between the zones, the diffferent break points were established so that similar rates of reduction offers were made between the different zones.

    And there is the possibility that it doesn't matter one bit that the break points differ by one percent between zones, since finding a yardage where you can maintain an average of either 89 or 90 doesn't make you any more competetive.
     
  6. Dove Commander

    Dove Commander TS Member

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    No one is forcing you to take your reduction. ps: if you think averages are easier to maintain in Ohio, your wrong. We have a short shooting season, only 3 real good months of shooting, and it's always windy. A 92 won our handicap today. Big time wind...again.
     
  7. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Dove Commander, exactly, yet the Central Zone has a higher break point than the Eastern and Southern zones where the targets are the same or easier than Ohio. JRM
     
  8. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    The different maximum averages for different zones is do to the gravitational pull of the moon on the targets being different in each zone. The ATA has spent millions on the calculations necessary to treat each member fairly no matter where he lives. HMB
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    In general, the shooting conditions are a little tougher in the Eastern/Southern Zones. A club with level ground is an exception in these zones. The typical background is targets emerging against trees and then going into a sky background. The irregular terrain also results in rather irregular wind currents.

    There are of course exceptions, but the reduction points are based on zone wide conditions. Comparing targets in Western Penna. and Eastern Ohio is a very inaccurate way to compare targets in the Eastern and Central Zones.

    Another factor that confuses many shooters is that the 1000 bird handicap average is calculated by the ATA computer based on the order the scores are entered into the computer. This is often not the same order as the scores appear on the shooters cards.

    Pat Ireland

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. Gunnerandbabe

    Gunnerandbabe TS Member

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    what wind ?
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    What's wrong with a 22-yarder having a 92 handicap average if it's OK for a 27-yarder to have one as plenty do?

    Though it's something that will never pass, there should be no trigger point at all. No punch in 1000 targets should lead to a reduction.

    Also get rid of the "Y" code and the H code while you are at it. It's pointless.

    And bring back the 17 yard-line too.

    Only 16% of ATA shooters have a 90 handicap average and anyone there or below that is provably too far back.

    I'm H-coded to the 27 for a single good score at the 2006 Grand haven't shot a decent score in two years. The rules are cheating me of a chance to compete from a yardage I might be able to do something from.

    Neil
     
  12. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    I'm aware I can turn it down if I wanted to but I won't. I'm still usually shooting against the same group of people for trophies at major shoots banging away from the 22 as the 23. It is not a status thing with me. I am shooting a new gun and doing reasonably well with it. Never been past the 24 yard line but I do believe that is going to change. Now if I only had the extra money for gas and shot. I ws just surprised that I got a reduction with my singles average. I flirt right around A in singles all the time and post more than my share of 97's and 98's in 16's, Unfortunately the 89's in the winter help bring the average back down a bit. It just seemed odd to me that you can never seem to get a reduction when you want one and then one shows up when you least expect it. I also figured they would toss the one low score of 80 before calculating it.

    Jeff
     
  13. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    Neil, there you go again, making sense. Jim
     
  14. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Perga 1, not so fast on your judgement call. Neil still hasn't addressed the issue of why the average Joe is assigned yardage for non-winning scores while the top 27 yarders wake up the morning after winning still at the 27.

    I'm still waiting for the ATA to re-assign me to the 20yd. line as that's where I'm very competetive or pour more concrete to at least the 30 to make the "big dogs" suffer a little.

    Guess what yardage the top shooters in Sunday's Handicap event in PA stood at while breaking a 99 and 100 straight!!
     
  15. perga1

    perga1 Active Member

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    oleolliedawg, Neil fully addressed the topic of this thread and a lot more. It is pretty rare to get any EC member or even BoD member to even comment on the failures of the handicap system. My hat is off to Neil for taking a shooter's approach to most issues. Regarding your concern for punches I think you know full well it's the BoD who has to address that and all the other oddities of the HC system. JRM
     
  16. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Perga1, the topic of this thread always leads to where none of our leaders dare tread. That is, your reducing the "average Joe" to where he'll always be non-competetive while ignoring the top, where the real problem lies!!
     
  17. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Neil,

    All good points. I'll mention them to the president of the ATA. I'm sure something will get done after he hears from me. HMB
     
  18. tomk2

    tomk2 Member

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    ERTZ-

    The information you seek is encoded on your average card. Start at the most recent shoot, and go back in time until you find a winning handicap score (or near winning score at some larger shoots) and/or a score of 96 or higher. Add up the number of handicap targets, if it has been 1000, you are eligible for a review. Note that there are some restrictions to recieving a reduction, so it is possible you won't recieve one every 1000 targets. Things such as not shooting enough singles targets, having previously been on the 27 yard line, and high scores at major tournaments can effect your elegibility in some circumstances.

    Also note that the review takes place once the ATA has had the scores reported to them, plus administrative time. I have always recieved my review notice in the mail within weeks of shooting my thousandth target.
     
  19. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    GoldEx you said "I ws just surprised that I got a reduction with my singles average. I flirt right around A in singles all the time and post more than my share of 97's and 98's in 16's," you never actually said what your singles average is. The Rule book says.

    16 yard average shooter cannot be reduced below

    97.0% or higher 24.0 yards

    95.0% to 96.9% 22.0 yards

    93.0% to 94.9% 20.0 yards

    This leaves quite a bit of leeway from B class(93)just under AA can be as you can see anywhere from 20 up. The very bottom of A class can be reduced down to 20 and at the top of A can be reduced to 22 so your singles average doesn't seem to have a large effect on reductions.

    Bob Lawless
     
  20. tomk2

    tomk2 Member

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    Ertz -

    I suspect you have been exempted from 1000 yard review by that good shooting you did at the 2006 Grand. I believe that No notice is given by mail unless you are offered the reduction. It takes a few pages to explain all the codes and restrictions, You would be better served by checking out the online rule book at

    http://www.shootata.com/pdfs/2008_Rulebook_4web.pdf

    pages 25 and 65 hold the most info. exerps below:

    "A shooter with a low purified handicap average (the average with
    abnormally low scores deleted) accompanied by a relative 16 yard
    average, will receive a one yard reduction, EXCEPT
    (1) No shooter will be reduced more than 2 yards in any target
    year.
    (2) No male shooter 15 years of age or older will be handicapped
    below 20 yards without a special review; exceptions to this policy
    are Veterans and Senior Veterans.
    (3) The known ability rule will be used in assessing a shooter’s

    No shooter will be reduced more than two yards in any one target
    year.
    4. Earned yardage of 1.5 or more yards for any single event may not be
    removed in part or in whole by any Committee action and/or 1000 target
    review for a minimum period of 2 years from the date the yardage is
    earned.
    5. When multiple 100 target Handicap target events are shot on the same
    day, only 2 100-target events may be considered as the maximum per
    day towards a reduction. The 2 events considered must be the 2 in
    which the highest scores are registered.

    There are also codes inserted into a shooter’s record that will prevent
    a yardage reduction from being granted without written direction from
    the State Delegate. This code indicates that a shooter has proven his
    ability. A very small minority of active shooters have restrictive codes
    in their record. Most codes are removed at target year end and are
    inserted back in the shooter’s record at the discretion of the State ATA
    Delegate or Central Handicap Committeeman.
     
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