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Difference in pitch angle between guns

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by benniesdad, Oct 29, 2007.

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  1. benniesdad

    benniesdad TS Member

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    Have an interesting question on pitch. One of the basic tests that has been recommended here on TS.com is that if you are experiencing problems with face slap to check pitch by comparing the pitch angle of your problem gun against one that is comfortable. I did exactly that with a problem Beretta A390. I compared it with a Browning O/U that fits me like an old pair of slippers and is totally comfortable with no face slap. With that in mind, I took dug out some washers and went to work.

    As a result of the measurements, it indicated I needed to add ¼ inch to the bottom of the recoil pad of my Beretta to make it the same as the Browning. I compared both the ribs and the combs. After I added the washers to the bottom screw I test fired it and the face slap turned into a knock out punch. In disgust I added the ¼ inch to the top since I figured it could not get worse, and it totally fixed the problem. Now when I compare the guns side by side, the auto is at a much steeper angle than the O/U yet both are comfortable. Essentially, my adjustment appears to have moved it in the opposite direction of what conventional wisdom indicates.

    There is no doubt that changing pitch made the difference in reducing face slap. It is the only thing I changed. The question is, why is there such a difference between the two guns?
     
  2. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    benniesdad, measure the differences between the two stocks from the rib line to the center of recoil pad. That is more than likely where the different pitch comes into play with your guns? Proper pitch on a field gun can be totally different than your trap model. Hap
     
  3. Hipshot 3

    Hipshot 3 TS Member

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    Trapguns with zero pitch are generally recommended!
     
  4. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    <I>"Trapguns with zero pitch are generally recommended!"</I>

    By whom? I had spent 4 hours with a stockfitter working on a butt stock that bit my face. I asked him what he was going to do about the pitch and he said that he didn't know until he made changes and I shot the gun...over and over again. I ended up with a 1/4" pitch spacer on the end of the stock and more pitch ground into the pad. Leads me to believe that there is no "recommended" pitch; what's used is what works for the shooter.

    Morgan
     
  5. Hipshot 3

    Hipshot 3 TS Member

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    With zero pitch the gun recoils directly backward ,if it is mounted correctly and if it fits the shooter. Some shooters who experience face slap,etc.usually have a problem with one or the other...or both!
     
  6. benniesdad

    benniesdad TS Member

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    Based on Hap's recommendation, I took a measurement from the rib line to the center of the stock on both guns (center of the stock calculated by measuring to the top and the bottom and calculating the middle). The Browning O/U measured 4.75 inches and the Beretta auto measured 5.00 inches.

    Both guns have identical Kick-eez sporting clays pads installed by none other than Tron. The O/U is a high post rib and the Beretta auto is a step rib trap barrel but the heights of the ribs are very similiar.

    Although the guns are similiar, they are obviously different. What has me scratching my head is that the correction that fixed the problem was totally in a direction making the difference in the pitch between the guns even greater.

    The lessons I seem to draw from this are:

    1. Pitch can make a big difference if you are having problems with face slap.

    2. If moving it one direction does not work, try moving it the other, even if it doesn't make sense.
     
  7. maclellan1911

    maclellan1911 TS Member

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    Could be weight of gun. How the force travels down reciever into stock??. Simular problem here. My XT I can shoot all day with any load. I shoot some hot loads out of my Browning /gold I get recoil fatigue. . Both are fitted quit nice. I do not get face slap but the gold definatly gives me a different sensation when shooting. I like both =. When I first got the gold with the sporting stock it would slap up into my face as if it was sliding up my shoulder. Adding washers the same as you aliviated the problem, but finally got a Wenig New amercan trap model stock. fitted no more slap. Also the Gold is lighter than my XT about 1.25lbs. Rollins book and much advice from TS nation has helped me, HUGE.
     
  8. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

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    these two different guns are like comparing apples to oranges. measure the thickness of the 2 washers that you have used to correct the face slap. then recut the stock by that same measurement. i always found having the stock cut straight up and down instead of being cut on an angle, delivers the recoil straight back to my shoulder instead of to my face. your question is like asking what is the difference between a ford and a chevy? two different guns completely.
    steve balistreri
     
  9. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Zero pitch may work for some people but if I shot a gun with zero pitch I would get serious face slap plus a mean bruise on my shoulder pocket where the toe of the recoil pad would dig in. Correct pitch happens when the top and bottom of the recoil pad contact your shoulder pocket at about the same time.
     
  10. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    benniesdad, there's more difference between the two guns "measurements" than 1/4 inches. With two different hight ribs, numbers for pitch comparison should come from the barrel center-lines. My O/U top barrel and single have similar numbers measured from the rib line, a high post rib would make those numbers change even more. Lots of unknown things here with two totally different guns. Hap
     
  11. ddrsuz

    ddrsuz Member

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    Benniesdad: I may not be experienced enough to weigh in on this, but being an engineer type, the subject of several of the setup options in trap guns always facincates me. Seems to me that the answer is that each gun has its own special mechanics and those affect each shooter based on their own special characteristics of build. 90 degrees of pitch makes sense if your shoulder aligns with the barrel at 90 degrees. In an exaggeration of your example, if when you mounted the gun, and you had just the sight picture you wanted, but the bottom of the butt was against your shoulder and the top of the butt was 2" away from you shoulder, under recoil the gun would want to rotate around the lower butt point and bingo, it rotates up into your face. If the butt were out of line the other way it would want to rotate down. I have seen shooters grind the comb forward of their mounting area down and away from their face so that as the gun moved back in recoil, the stock moved away from the face.
    In all, I think you did it right, play with the variables and when it feels right, you are happy.
    d
    Blast away,
    Dennis
     
  12. Ontario Chris

    Ontario Chris Member

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    Pitch requirements can vary from person to person depending on shoulder and chest dimensions. If a person has a gun of zero pitch and is big in the chest, but light in the shoulders he/she will need to increase pitch (more washers at the top). This will, as Rollin points out in his book, allow the heel and toe of the recoil pad to touch the shoulder at the same time during mount.

    Chris
     
  13. Ron Frazier

    Ron Frazier TS Member

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    This is the type of post that would benefit from Rollin's expertise. I hope that the attack dogs haven't driven him off and taken the FREE help that he provides to all of us away. His advice benefits all of us and if it helps him sell a few books, what is the harm?
    There are some very knowledgeable people on here, Rollin, Pat, Gordon, and Neil to name just a few. They provide a service to all of us, yet often get attacked for it. If you added up all of the posts that here just for the sake of criticism you may get a thimble full of actual knowledge.
    I feel better now, thanks for letting me rant.
     
  14. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    irfner is correct. Adding a spacer at the top of the recoil pad will increase the pitch. This will help face slap for some.

    benniesdad- The pitch in the two guns you posted (4.75 and 5 inches) is a lot of pitch. Are you sure you measured the pitch properly. The standard is to measure pitch at 30 inches of barrel length.

    There is a fundamental problem with comparing proper stock fit between two guns and even the same gun at different times. This is variation with the gun mount. All of us do not mount the gun exactly the same way each time. A stock can only be fitted properly for a single gun mount. Two different guns will very likely be mounted differently. The positions of our hands and the force we grip the gun with our hands is very important with felt recoil.

    We have difficulty recognizing if our gun comes up 1/8 too high or if during the event, we begin to slowly mount the gun just a little further out on our shoulders. Another trick experiences shooters have learned is when the gun comes up so far off that it is clearly recognized, but we believe we can still break the target. Rather than remounting the gun, we call pull. This is most common when we are shooting very well.

    Pat Ireland
     
  15. benniesdad

    benniesdad TS Member

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    For clarification, the measurements of 4.75 and 5.00 were not measurements of pitch. They were measurements I took to try to answer Hap’s comment. I got these by holding the ribs of both guns along a straight edge (2x4 in the basement) and measuring perpendicular distance from this line to the heel and then the toe. I then calculated the perpendicular distance to the center of the recoil pad using these two distances.

    Per MX-8B’s diagram above, these reflect the measurement from C to D.

    I did not do an actual measurement of pitch other than the eyeball one against the other. Regardless of whatever the difference was the difference is now twice that original amount. That is the interesting part.
     
  16. dmarbell

    dmarbell Active Member

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    irfner and Ireland,

    My 303 has some face slap, and seems to have significant barrel rise. It has a badly installed aftermarket pad, which I am removing. I can experiment with a couple of other pads I have.

    To reduce face slap and barrel rise, I need shims at the top of the pad, to increase pitch. Is that a correct reading?

    Danny
     
  17. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Danny- Shim the top of the pad to increase the pitch. This may, or may not help you, but it is the first thing to try.

    Pat Ireland
     
  18. nicky

    nicky Member

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    Just my two cent's, I had a diamond grade 101 unsingle and everyone will say they kick. A couple of things the 101's were one of the first stocks that had cast without an adjustable comb so the comb upon recoil would bang right into your cheek, also they had very little pitch and also have a very narrow(pointed) comb on top. So I did the adjustable comb thing to off set the cast, then put a soft top on it approx. 1/4" wider than original, and put on a kickezz modified recoil pad to give it more pitch. The results were one of the softest guns I ever shot. I had one shooter try it and said it had less recoil then his 391 auto. I now shoot a Kolar T/S and I know the 101 after the mod's is just as soft shooting as the Kolar. And one thing to remember not every person has the same build. A man with a 48" chest will probaly need more pitch then someone who has a 42" chest. , Kevin
     
  19. Rollin Oswald

    Rollin Oswald Active Member

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    Although inadequate pitch is the most common cause of cheek-slap, there are other possibilities. Drop at the heel is one of them. The more drop at the heel (the crookeder the stock) the more barrel rise there will be.

    How the cheek makes contact with the comb is another possible cause. Other stock dimensions as well as shooting form can be involved. As to the reason decreasing the pitch on the gun eliminated cheek-slap, something else had to change unless the slap was being caused by the butt'sliding up on the shoulder during recoil.

    By the way, my website, www.stockfitting.com,is down or "parked" during the change of website hosting companies. It should be back up in a day or two.

    Rollin
     
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