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Determine POI?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by loophole, Jan 28, 2013.

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  1. loophole

    loophole TS Member

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    What's the simple way to determine POI. I've read it here before but I've forgotten the easy way to do it. Help appreciated.
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    There are any number of simple ways some of which may get you close, others of which just mislead you.. But there is one way to _really_ find out. It is something like this:

    http://www.mn-trap.org/tech_corner/n_winston/Point_of_Impact_and_Pattern_Testing_at_13_Yards.pdf

    Of course you won't do it - no one would - until you find out that all the other ways don't work, but there's plenty of time. And you may lose interest in the problem in the meantime anyway and think of all the work you will avoid!*

    Neil

    * . . . but you will never know where your gun shoots.
     
  3. trapshootertoo

    trapshootertoo Member

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    Bench resting a shotgun to find the point of impact is useless really in my opinion. The best way for me is to take a flat of trap loads you plan to shoot to the 22 yard line, set the trap machine on straightaways, stand on post 3 and shoot targets, making adjustments until you are smoking targets consistently. Just my 2cents. Paul
     
  4. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Paul, what if your gun shoots to the right? If you think three or so inches make a difference in scores in the vertical POI realm, why expect something different side-to-side?

    Neil
     
  5. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    Thanks Neil...
     
  6. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    As Neil says, success comes through hard but enjoyable work and knowing exactly what your favorite toy of the week is doing!

    I often wonder how many shooters are toeing the line with off shooting scatter guns while they can't figure out how long or how many targets it will take before they can shoot consistent scores?? I wish them luck!!

    Hap
     
  7. trapshootertoo

    trapshootertoo Member

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    N.J.Bob, Sorry, I was assuming you would have first determined it was not shooting left or right but really, how will you know how high or low your P.O.I. needs to be without shooting targets?
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Paul, The reason I suggested starting at the beginning was that tschoenke wrote "What's the simple way to determine POI. I've read it here before but I've forgotten the easy way to do it. Help appreciated." and it didn't sound to me that he had determined that it was not shooting left or right; not yet, at least. That's why I recommended starting at Step 1.

    Once you have tested the gun for right or left deviation as recommended, you also know where it shoots vertically with the eye/muzzle/target relationship you see now. That's a least a start. If it shoots below the point-of-aim, you know you have to go up. If it's real high, say six or eight inches, you know that it's more likely to need to go down than up, but that's only a generalization.

    Once you have those general (and flexible) end-points place, you can profitably tune the vertical to your style in just the way you describe or perhaps use a better system like paying attention to the shots where you didn't quite get the gun where you had intended and noting the quality of those breaks (if any) over many shots. I think a good POI is one which gives you about equal leeway in shooting higher or lower than you intended but some would bias that more upward and they may be right.

    Neil
     
  9. trapshootertoo

    trapshootertoo Member

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    Niel, It wasn't my intention to discourage anyone as to your suggestions. I was simply passing on a method I've used for several years and when trying to help others. Using a full choke and reading the breaks should have been included. I also believe that that a pattern that is a little high is best. Knowing this helps me to remember to keep my fool head on the stock! Paul
     
  10. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    We'll deal with reading the breaks later this week, Paul. Keep a lookout for the link.

    But I have no problem with biasing a POI in one direction or the other, as long as you know which direction. Maybe high is better since if you need to change something due to wind, for example, its easier to gauge "how far under" than "how far over."

    You should be aware, however, that it takes _a lot_ of shots to get the POI the way you want using your method. As the videos Ron and I posted in the TBR Cyber-challenge and the subsequent answer thread, you can get very good breaks from just a pellet or two. So you really have to adjust by pure smoke only, since just good breaks can be delivered by shot just about anywhere. And that's why, as you said, you have to use plenty of choke when you do any of this.

    Neil
     
  11. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    The more we "mythasize" (A new word?) the more interesting it gets!!

    Hap
     
  12. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Ah yeah - "paying attention to the shots where you didn't quite get the gun where you intended and noting the quality of the those breaks over many shots" - sounds suspiciously like "reading the breaks".

    How many shots will this require to be an expert at evaluating POI from a dynamic shooting postion, at the traps? 50? 250,000?

    Glad to see your catching on - how long has it been - a year? Who woulda' thunk it? GAP
     
  13. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    The problem I have with Paul's idea of just shooting targets from post three is that a person can used to any poi shooting straight-aways, and he may end up with a setting that is way too high. After shooting from post three a person should shoot the extreme angles. That will tell if the poi is correct.


    Gapper, you are arguing a different point than Neil. You are arguing TBR from a point of knowing full well where the shot went because you saw where barrel was pointed. Neil is arguing TBR from a point of NOT knowing where the barrel was pointed and just guessing where the shot cloud went.
     
  14. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    Right you are Johnny, as the only true test of POI is . . . score!

    Ironically, the only true test of chokes is . . . score!
     
  15. Loumish

    Loumish Member

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  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    The the only true test of POI is a determination of where the shot goes when the sights (beads, eye) are in a particular relationship to one another at a specific distance. Where the shot goes is the POI, unrelated to whether the shot hits any targets or not.

    The only true test of chokes is the number of pellets they put in a specified area at a specified distance. Where the pellets are and how many there are is the test of a choke, unrelated to whether the shot hits any targets or not.

    Neil
     
  17. Gapper

    Gapper TS Member

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    No way to "determine" weather the POI is correct, or weather choke is proper, unless it is through actual practice.

    The specific area is the target; the specific distance is established by the rules of the game, and the ability of the shooter.

    Keep trying.
     
  18. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    In one of the best threads we had going last year was the topic of how high should the POI be ?

    " Thought I'd throw something in here...my theory on POI and what is right for each person is what is happening with your barrel when you hit the switch. In my handicap clinics,I really try to watch barrels during the shot, because I feel that is what will determine the POI you need.

    When I have visited with some buddies who were all tremendous shooters, I came to find out that we all see the same thing when we pull the trigger, what happens then determines your POI. For example...Mitchel Loveless, Ricky Marshall, and Nora all shoot lower POI's, but they all go through the target with their barrel on the shot...on the other side Ray, myself and other high POI shooters stop or slow down our barrels on the shot, therefore, we need a higher POI to make up the difference. I really think it's that simple."

    Randy Ross
     
  19. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    Neil, your statement of the "true test of POI" is certainly correct. Paul was adjusting his POI in reference to actually hitting the target by shooting straight-aways. From my experience, that doesn't really work. If I shoot enough straight shots from post 3 I can get used to any crazy high poi. But then shooting hard angles afterward will tell me where I should set it.
     
  20. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Johnny, as a 50+ % aimer, I don't do much of this at all and when I do, it's on locked angle targets because they give you so much more information. I just set the gun to shoot a little high and try to get the gun just, just below the target when it goes off. All the rest of this stuff I read about on the net seems amazingly inefficient compared to the way I do it, but I guess if you don't know where you are shooting it's the best you can do.

    I videoed some locked straightaways shot by an All-American shooter last fall and he shot them amazingly close, surely under 30 yards from post 3. I can do that but I miss more than I do if I just slow down and take my time. I just swiftly - swiftly, not fast - put the gun right about . . about . . there! And marvel that it seems to go off when it slides into place without any input from me.

    Neil
     
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