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Demonstration 3-hole Handicap

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Hauser, Nov 1, 2007.

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  1. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    The Olympics has been in the forefront of introducing somewhat obscure and not so obscure sport to the Olympic venue. These have been called “demonstration sports”. The purpose is to determine if there enough interest in the sport to include it in the normal Olympic events held every four years.



    My suggestion is to include a demonstration 3-hole (straight-aways from 1 and 5) handicap as part of the next Grand program.


    The same target cost, purse, and option money as any other handicap.



    The Grand is the correct venue for this and it certainly be held sometime during the preliminary events.


    Lets give this ancient form of trapshooting some exposure.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  2. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    " 3 hole 85 yard target and shoot what they shoot all over the world".


    Who are these folks and how maney of them shoot this type of target??


    Jerry Hauser
     
  3. Pull Bang

    Pull Bang Member

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    Demonstration 3-hole (straight-aways from 1 and 5) handicap. Will not be accepted!

    Remember several years ago when we shot singles with a required 3 hole setting. Didn't last long. Did it?


    What ever happened to handicap doubles? Remember when that was being promoted.


    We are set in our ways!!!!! Singles singles and more singles(2 hole), some handicap and maybe a little doubles.


    Frank
     
  4. Hipshot 3

    Hipshot 3 TS Member

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    Jerry.....great idea!
     
  5. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    Pull Bang


    The 3-hole target was in effect for 50+ years prior to 1995 when it was changed. It wasn't a one year lets try something new event.


    Jerry Hauser
     
  6. smartass

    smartass TS Member

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    To hell with the 3-hole: we demand the 1-hole if not the 0-hole.
     
  7. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Clubs changed it. shooters would go to clubs that threw puppy targets, and avoid clubs that threw legal 3 hole targets.

    So by force of economics, the 2 hole 48 yard target became standard.

    HM
     
  8. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Autumn Grand would work also Jerry! Sounds good to me! Hap
     
  9. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    I believe the "two hole" phenomena started in the Western US. That's where all the records started to fall willy-nilly in the mid seventies through the eighties.

    Since all around average played a significant part of All American team selection back then and the Western guys were setting all of these fabulous long run records and receiving a lot of attention, the trend was to start throwing the western "two holer" and throwing them softer, as well. I remember a shooter from California, Al Feirra (sp?) who didn't seem to miss any singles targets for a great while.

    We Midwest and Eastern guys used to go to places like Redlands, Spanish Fork and ElPaso, just to shoot those lollypops. We patted ourselves on the back thinking we had arrived as "top guns." After shooting in heaven we all went home and there were those nasty 50yd+ / three holers waiting for us in the cold.

    Consequently, we started to demand those softies be thrown at our favorite home clubs to be competitive with the westies. Naturally, the clubs that abliged became more popular and the others, not getting the message, suffered and many times whithered and died. Eventually the ATA adopted the two-holer as the standard and here we are.

    I don't think it is important, however, to go back to a three hole target with the idea to help our fine sport grow. Although I have always thought that a higher speed target is what made the game frustrating for the avid participater during the 1995 Crausbay experiment. Those few years around the return of the three hole target also brought about some pretty fast targets at the Grand and the satellites. To me it was all relative and I liked the change. The most experienced talented long yardage shooters cleaned up that year and that is what the change was designed to do. It has always been a mystery to me that the people that defend greater target difficulty are usually the older shooter that thinks the more difficult target gives him or her an advantage over the expert shots.

    Back then I alway thought that the three hole target at about 48 yds., in "still air" was about the best compromise of all. The speed doesn't kill you but the angle sure made for fewer 200x200's and the cap 100's. It would allow for excellence, separating the best shooters and/or the lucky from the average folks, as well as the number of shootoff shooters at the end of the day.

    I'd much rather see this kind of change instead of developing a different event. Remember when the ATA and the NRA developed a wobble/International event for Vandalia? I know it lasted for a couple or maybe three years but it never really took off. I'm not sure but I seem to remember them throwing the targets about 70-75 yds on a standard wobble trap. I don't remember whether it was one shot or two though. The point is is it was too different.
     
  10. Hauser

    Hauser Member

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    The bottom line is the sport is not growing. I happen to believe the majority of shooters begin shooting registered targets because they are attracted to the competition. If thats true then the basic reason people compete is to win.


    The current target format which clearly makes it easier to shoot a good score makes it that much more difficult to win.


    With rare exceptions you can't attend a large shoot and expect to win an event unless you shot a perfect or near prefect score.


    Will averages drop if 3-hole targets thrown, yes they will.


    Win 27-yard shooters continue to win. yes they will just not as often.


    Does the 3-hole target handicap the long yardage shooter more than shorter yardages, clearly it does.


    The suggestion is for this handicap to be held at the Grand. It cost nothing to throw the event and cant do any harm.

    Can it??


    Jerry Hauser
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Jerry- I question one small part of your post. You stated "The current target format which clearly makes it easier to shoot a good score makes it that much more difficult to win."

    If it is easier for everyone to shoot a good score would not that simply make the winning scores higher? It is not really more difficult to win but simply makes it more difficult to win with a lower score.

    I personally do not really care if a club is throwing "two hole" or "three hole" targets. I do see some current disadvantages to a club that throws difficult targets and I have not seen demonstrable advantages to requiring all clubs to throw the wider targets. It is my opinion that the decline in our membership is unrelated to the 2-3 hole question. Others have different opinions and none of us can support our opinions with sound evidence.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. motrap

    motrap Member

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    Jerry ....... As always, I agree with your side of this question ......... and do think it would be the [second] best (and necessary) improvement to the popularity (and therefore growth) of trapshooting.

    The [first] problem is the lack of consistency in the handicapping ...... at whatever yardage you arbitrarily decide to truncate the natural progression of the handicapping process, there will be an unfair advantage ......... by those that are skillful enough to absorb their handicap and still shoot 93+%.

    I can do that at 24 yards, but they won't let me shoot from there ....... I know others that can keep 93+% from 22 yards and others from 25 yards, but again, they won't let them shoot from there ........ a good friend of mine can keep a 93+% from the 27 yard line ........... but they won't let him ....... wait, nevermind, they WILL let him keep shooting from there ....... time after time ........ win after win ........... he is very celebrated, I am very proud to call him a friend, I am very proud he is from Missouri ........... will I bet money against him ......... are you kidding?

    For the good of trapshootoing ......... Rudy
     
  13. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    In the 70's and 80's nearly all targets thrown at the Golden West Grand were
    3 hole (straightaways from 1 & 5) and set about 50 yards. A lot of handicaps were won by short yardage shooters. They payoffs were high. Shooters flocked to the shoot particially due to high pay offs. When the targets were reduced to
    2 hole the long yardage shooters started to prevail in almost all handicaps. Attendance started to decline.

    The same could be said of the California State Shoot and many other shoots.
    Look at the Missouri Fall Handicap. For years they threw the 3 hole about 50 yards. Again short yardage shooters had the opportunity to win a considerable
    amount. Today that shoot, like most others, throw the narrower softer targets. Who wins today.

    When the ATA advised all they would enforce the rules in 95 there was a lot of complaints. Mostly by shooters that could not win no matter what they threw.
    The ATA succumed the those wishes and changed the rule book to lesser angles.
    Remember prior to that the rule required the 3 hole target or its equivalent.
    Enforcing that rule for only 1 year was not a fair period for determining the value of the more difficult target. Thus, in my opinion, a continued decline in participation and a more rapid drop out rate of newer shooters. (It could also be noted during the 70's the punch system was far more liberal. No score punchs for 96's.

    Thanks Mr. Hauser for you article. - Jim
     
  14. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    I think Jerry Hausers idea has a lot of merit but the shooters will never allow it to happen because they have been spoiled ... The attendance is down now and something of this nature would only make it worst ... Sad but true ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  15. Cherokee Kid

    Cherokee Kid TS Member

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    Maybe the ATA can do a survey about why shooters quit shooting registered targets?
     
  16. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Motrap(Rudy) is guilty of writing an intelligent post. Shame on him!!
     
  17. jrb

    jrb Member

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    I'd rather break a 97 and win then break a 99 and not even get in a shoot-off
    ( Tom Rombach@ Fall Handicap). When you so many good shooters at the big shoots, the odds are there will be alot of high scores..Some will be the big-dogs and the others will be a few out of us regular shooters who have a career day!!!

    From a singles and double event..being classified by your average is the best way...especially by having AA ans AAA classes at the bigger shoots, but , handicap is a different story. Maybe a true handicap is changing what target the top 27 yarders shoot at as they win from the back fence.....not sure how it would work but like Rudy says" when a 27 yarder wins, he's not handicapped again he just keeps on shooting from the same spot"! If you look at most shoot-offs at big shoots..the majority of them are 27 yarders!!! Leo and the rest have earned everything they have won...they are great shooters but we need to handicap them as the rest of us are handicapped! I don't believe just putting them on the 27 handicaps them anymore!


    J. R. Brock
     
  18. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Why do we keep calling this thing a 3-hole target? Virtually no real club is still using the old Winchester handsets anymore. A change in the degrees of width in setting targets is much more palatable!!
     
  19. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    No matter what targets are thrown, the best shooters will win. A wider target will be easier for good 27 yarder to hit than a good 23 yarder because you have less gun movement from further back.

    There are two reasons why it takes a very high score to win. In singles it is because D, C and B shooters are misclassified. A true D C or B shooter can not shoot 100 straight. They are misclassified because the classification system is dependent on a whole bunch of people sitting at a sign-in tables all across the country applying their own criteria as to where to classify a shooter. If the requirement was to test the last 500-700 targets average against last years annual average and take the higher of the two, people would be classified more consistantly.

    The second is that the handicap system is a mess. The 20 is too close to start a good shooter who will eventually get to the 27. He will win a bunch of champions and yardage groups on his way back. Answer, start everyone further back.

    Also there is a class of 27 yard shooters who have mastered that yardage and walk to the line expecting to shoot a 96+ score. This is the group that will win most large shoots and certainly yardage class. Increasing target angles, going to smaller loads or adding concrete are not going to happen and if it did, these guys would still master the game. What needs to happen is to acknowledge these shooters have mastered the 27 yard line and give them the recognition they deserve by creating a Master Class.
     
  20. LV Trapshooting Park

    LV Trapshooting Park TS Member

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    Hi Jerry, always enjoy your posts because their usually correct, and you are from the same era I am. However, with posters like the Wanker out there, I fear you and I are old dinosaurs that might as well just get over it, and, silently watch the whole thing go down the tube. The experience that you and I have from over the years means nothing to the group we have left today.

    The game will never go back to what it was, at least not under A.T.A. jurisdiction. Keep the good memories, and accept today for what it is. Bottom line is...clubs have to throw whatever kind of targets their customers demand, and that's what we will have to live with.

    Have you noticed how trap guns have evolved along with the modern target? Back in the 60's, long yardage shooters were rarely competitive. Then the Perazzi TM1 & MX8 came along and everything changed. Now there was a quick, responsive, low profile single barrel that had a natural affinity for finding the target. The Ljutic Monogun had come along before, but with the exception of Dan Orlich, Britt Robinson, and C.E.Barnhart, not many shooters could handle them. As target settings changed, equipment became a little heavier, as our aging shooters were trying to get away from any recoil they could. But today's gun does not have to be as responsive, as we are not dealing with the angle and speed as before. This isn't meant to be a plug for Perazzi, but it was definitely king in it's day.

    Probably see you at the Spring Grand Jerry, and we'll compare some old notes!


    Steve Carmichael

    Las Vegas Gun Club
     
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