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Dean DeBow "Shoot-Speak"

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by JACK, Sep 1, 2010.

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  1. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Dean DeBow and Dennis DeVault (D and D Clinics) always provide bits of wisdom for shooters that want to advance. Here is a paste from their recent pdf newsletter that speaks to me.

    paste:

    Very few people can shoot an out of the box piece of wood, and a factory length of pull is in most cases to long. Most people try to shoot a stock that is too long any way. The biggest secret in this game or any other like it is, there is no big secret. Getting your equipment to work for you is the best money you can spend.

    Recently, I was introduced to a very nice man. He wanted help taking his game to the next level. However, he was experiencing problems with his gun and it was affecting his shooting. After a brief phone conversation, we discovered the problem. It was the hulls he was reloading. They are not designed to be reloaded. Most all hulls with a steel base should be discarded.

    Thanks Dean and Dennis for being so generous with your knowledge.

    Jack
     
  2. kiv-c

    kiv-c Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Not designed to be reloaded? Seriously?

    Why then are the primers removable? Better yet, why aren't they Berdan primed?(better ignition)

    Why do the crimps survive more than one firing?

    Why are there wads available for reloading them?
     
  3. 320090T

    320090T Well-Known Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Smart guys but I gotta call BS on that one. Not the best hull to reload, but it can be done and done well.
     
  4. brett44

    brett44 Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Not worth arguing over. Take his advice or not!
     
  5. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    Lets face it, in the reloading equation-hull cost & if they are used at least 5 times is among the lowest cost factor. I was told by a gun manufacturer who will remain unnamed to stop loading steel based hulls. He said the damage to your guns is not worth the pennies saved. So if you shoot less than 15k rds a year. All you would need are 5k good hulls @.03--equals $150.00--why screw things up or potentially screw things up for that little amount of money.

    Phil Berkowitz
     
  6. Bob Hawkes

    Bob Hawkes Well-Known Member

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    Dean DeBow

    OK Phil, I've got a question for you. I agree that they are not worth reloading. But they are cheap enough that I shoot the Top Guns except for the odd special reload, which I would make from an STS.

    ?? Do you think the steel hull is affecting the chamber adversely on the initial use?
     
  7. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Dean DeBow

    I tried loading a few and promptly quit loading them! The extra effort on my loader and chambers just wasn't worth the pennies saved.

    I'm in Phils came here!

    Hap
     
  8. MX/MT

    MX/MT TS Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

    I can point my gun at someone and pull the trigger. I guess that means I'm supposed to do that.
     
  9. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

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    Its not the chamber its the breech face, reloaders--and anything that could be affected by a harder than brass surface. I have reloaded gun clubs for my second shot of doubles,but when they are gone--no more steel faced sheels--its kinda like the old Fram commercial-pay me now or pay me later-- the costs will more than balance out in the long rfun.

    Phil Bedrkowitz
     
  10. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Dean DeBow

    DeBow does say "Most all hulls with a steel base should be discarded." Key word is "Most"

    Too, he states that his recommendation is for a shooter trying to "take his game up to the next level".

    I contend two things. 1) Steel bases put abnormal wear on the reciever and loaders, and 2) Try to get a stock fitting that is not too long. I shoot 14-3/8".
     
  11. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Dean DeBow

    I have reloaded thousands of the TOP GUN Hulls and the face of my momo-bloc shows no wear, I shoot a CG.

    My load is 18.5 Promo, 1 1/8th oz # 7 1/2s Windjammer wad by Claybuster, and Rio Primers.

    I have thousands of them left to reload and will continue to do so till I see some kind of effect on my CG if and when there will be.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  12. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Hey Guys,

    Not to throw gas on the fire but look at Pat Laib's ads for the breech face repairs that they do everyday. It used to be the Remington 3200 now they have a fix for Ljutic, Perazzi, and several other guns. The damage is being done by the steel based shells and steel primers mixed with the gases created from the powder. None of this became a problem until the cheap sheels came into being. After talking with the quality control manager for a big shell company his comment to me was, all we need to do is make them cheap and they will buy them. No one cares any longer about quality control only the bottom line and how much profit we can make. Just my 2 cents worth.

    Dennis DeVault
     
  13. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Dennis is the problem caused by the hard primers or the steel hull bases? Or is it a case of leaking gases? I have a hard time seeing how the steel base could cause a problem.
     
  14. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    Dean DeBow

    Well, I handle a lot of break open guns and I can point out how and where the bezel wears the receiver. Especially if the primer is not seated exactly. I prefer the little bit of give that the brass allows.
     
  15. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

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    Dean DeBow

    perazzi has always had a problem with their breach face around the firing pin hole because of the soft steel they used.Gunsmiths have made thousands repairing them..The new modles have better steel...
     
  16. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Dean DeBow

    All of you have missed the point.

    Why were the steel hulls affecting the shooters performance???

    Any fool will agree brass hulls are easier to resize and there should be less wear on the gun (especially if the metal is soft); but how, in the Wide World of Sports, does a steel hull affect your score?

    Don Verna
     
  17. Dennis DeVault

    Dennis DeVault Well-Known Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Hunter44,

    MIA is correct, many times shooters do not seat there primers properly and that will beat the back of the breech face and firing pin bucket. The steel hulls in general through leakage causes the face of the breech to start eroding. I have personally loaded several brands of steel base shells that will not hold the primer in the pocket securly. The steel base shells when they swell do not come back like brass. This is what caused the shooter mentioned to have a problem. With the constant distraction of taking shells out of the gun he could not keep focused on the task of breaking a target. 9 out of 10 shells were sticking in the gun. When Dean changed shells the problem went away and the shooter started doing much better now that the distraction was gone. Also last year I had a customer send me several boxes of shells that he said would not go off in one of our guns. I open the boxes of shells and found that none of the primers had been seated, they were sticking out of the back of the shell about an 1/8" or more. I called the shooter and he replied it didn't matter beause when he closed the gun the breech face seated the primer anyway. I was speechless and did not have a comeback for that one. Sometimes one never knows,

    Dennis
     
  18. hunter44

    hunter44 Well-Known Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Thanks everyone, I had it all wrong, I thought it was the steel hull base impacting the breach face that did the damage.......now I understand just what the real problem is......out go the few steel base hulls that I have!
     
  19. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Dennis,

    Thanks for the added information.

    I have seen a gun that cannot handle a steel based hull. It had a "ring" in the chamber and the steel hull would not "relax" sufficiently after firing causing an extraction problem. To me, that is a gun issue; but if the guy wants to blame the hull - so be it.

    Don Verna
     
  20. JTEA

    JTEA Member

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    Dean DeBow

    Perhaps the problem is in their reloading, not the hulls. I have always cleaned my Ljutics every time I shoot and see no difference in any wear or powder problems with any type hull. I do use clean powders such as Solo 1000 and PB. I have also seen hulls which are difficult to reload, and primers improperly set. Gun Clubs work fine with a PW and Ljutic. Top Guns for more than one reload are worthless to me. Also hulls which were not re-sized correctly are a problem.

    Fact: some guns have tighter chambers than others. Ljutic made all their guns for AA's and would open them .005" for Federal shooters. Check an auto-loader for a loose fit.


    JT
     
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