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Data Sources (?) on "The Move"

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by goatskin, Aug 29, 2009.

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  1. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    I have been away from organised shooting for quite some time, and while I was aware that the Grand had moved from Vandalia to Sparta, I paid little attention to the whys & wherefores.

    In discussions here, from the last month+, I have heard/learned a lot of things: perhaps most of them were opinions or memory-enhanced 'takes', but interesting nonetheless.

    Google has not been especially helpful, but then there are a lot of things that don't make Google, neither.

    Are there published (or 'semi-published' or 'kinda privately-circulated') accounts from people involved and knowledgeable about 'The Move' and the various interworkings?

    I can surely see why anybody who likes good scores would not go to Amarillo on a bet, but why was Las Vegas not chosen? Why is there SO much animus from OH & PA shooters, still?

    As Dysinger states (almost as a 1st person account and w/o qualifiers) did ATA decide very early that Ohio was a non-contender, regardless?

    As important and lucrative as having The Grand is for ANY state, I am both surprised and suspicious that Ohio did NOT make a serious offer to keep such an economic boon.

    Even if one accepts as fact the ATA board and EC could bankrupt a hot dog stand at Wrigley Field, too many things just.don't.make.sense.

    Has anyone pointers where I might go to get de-ignorantised?


    Bob
     
  2. Carol Lister

    Carol Lister TS Member

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  3. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    1. The ATA got kicked out of Vandalia

    2. No one else could even come close to the offer made by the IDNR
     
  4. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    I'm sure that you could look through the ATA archives to find all of the relative meeting minutes from the relevant time period leading up to the move.
     
  5. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    According to the second article on this page, Mr. Fishburn was not appoached (by his trapshooting friends) about building a new facility until after the decision was made to relocate to Sparta, and the original intent of his friends was to provide a replacement venue so that they could hold their state shoot.

    I don't know this history very well, since all this occurred before I ever started shooting trap, but it seems that these articles that I have read show a timeline where the ATA would have had to decline a late offer by Fishburn to host the Grand, because it looks like the contract negotiations were well under way before the facility in Ohio was ever even considered.

    Maybe someone with more insight will come on here and clear this all up. My only interest is in history (because I love it), but also it would be nice to see the hatchet buried at some point, and the only way to get that done IMO is with open dialogue and truth.

    So maybe we will get some truthful history from some people who were involved: not hearsay and opionions, but real documented truths.
     
  6. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    <i>...So maybe we will get some truthful history from some people who were involved: not hearsay and opionions, but real documented truths. </i>

    What she said.

    Thanks, Carol, I've seen those, as they were prominent in Google. And I've seen extracts of the ATA minutes, but minutes are (any organisation) pretty sterlised and 'official' recreations of decisions, and not positions or negotiations.

    Like Devi, I'd like to see <i>aide memoirés</i> from participants from the day that Dayton (perhaps unofficially a year or two before) told ATA to start packing.

    As Pat, I believe, or perhaps Neil, has mentioned, I find it absolutely incredulous that Ohio (as a state) would be as unserious as they appeared to be about keeping the Grand.


    Bob
     
  7. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

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    Depends on what you read and who had a hand in dictateing it if its good or bad ... There was a lot of deception, manipulation, and who knows what going on as it was happening ... There still is to this day depending on who you talk to and which side of the fence they were on ... Whats done is done and the attendance keeps dropping ... The Grand is now the Biggest Little Trap Shoot in the World ... WPT ... (YAC) ... (former Illinois resident, I moved by choice)
     
  8. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    It would be nice if we could keep the opinions, insinuations, and put-downs out of the discussion and try to get to the truth, even if it's dirty.
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Goatskin, I don't know which is more appalling, your arrogance or bad judgement.

    You have at your hand the complete minutes of every official meeting which were open to correction by anyone present, yet you, knowing nothing about what went on, dismiss them with:

    "And I've seen extracts of the ATA minutes, but minutes are (any organisation) pretty sterlised and 'official' recreations of decisions, and not positions or negotiations."

    What makes you think that the history is other than recorded there? Can you give an example?

    Dissatisfied with the minutes - though you've only read excerpts (where are they?) , you ask posters on TS.com. most of who use aliases (none of them in the minutes, by the way) and few of whom were there.

    Are you crazy?

    Neil
     
  10. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Here again is a brief and accurate history. I was directly involved in the move decision. Well before the final decision, Amarillo was eliminated. I was against Amarillo but I am not sure they got a fair consideration. I went into the move decision meeting with the understanding that three sites would be considered (Las Vegas, Indiana and Sparta). The meeting began with Las Vegas removing themselves from consideration. The Indiana and Sparta sites were presented in some detail. Indiana had some problems with land acquisition questions and would require the ATA to go into debt about $20,000,000, perhaps more. The other site, Sparta, would not require a debt burden on the ATA. I, and others, believed that there were ways we could raise the money and make Indiana work. I made the motion that we move to Indiana. The motion was defeated. This left only one choice. To make sure we understood what we were doing, the final decision was postponed for four months. In December, a telephone conference meeting was called and Sparta was selected as our new site for the Grand.

    Pat Ireland
     
  11. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Pat's talking about the August, 2004 board meeting; others are of a similar vein and are available at the link above.

    Expanding on Pat's post a bit, Sparta was accepted at the meeting by about a three to one vote; the approval of the contract was put off until a later phone conference, which was preceded by individual zone conference calls which went over the contract (each member had a copy) in line-by-line detail.

    The money the ATA had in the bank at the time would not have covered the water system at Sparta; put another way, we could have built most of the water system but nothing else.

    Neil
     
  12. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    Pat, Neil...thank you for the input.

    Although I live in PA and have heard all the complaints about the Sparta move, I have pretty much come to the same conclusion as Sarge...it's resistance to change and travel. I don't buy the argument that I've heard from many, which is that the majority of shooters are from PA and Ohio, so the shoot should be held in one of those states. Where were those majority shooters when it came time to solicit their state for funding and/or venue options?

    Just my opinion based on what I've seen so far.
     
  13. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    I think it should have gone to Rhinelander.

    HM
     
  14. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    HM-----Excuse my ignorance, but where is that?????-----Matt
     
  15. The Rock

    The Rock Active Member

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    The state of IL built it with the idea that it would pay for it's self. It has not yet. There is an 11.5 Billion shortfall in state monies that must be addressed and the state must now decide where cuts are to be made. While no cuts are included for recreation section. One has to wonder if the average citizen would want a shooting center over parks or schools.


    Illinois’ Budget Crisis
    Illinois is facing an unprecedented and historic economic crisis.

    ron-with-residentUnbalanced budgets, shrinking revenue, and cash-flow problems have led to unparalleled payment delays and serious threats to vital services in Illinois. Recent estimates are projecting an $11.5 billion deficit, threatening all services across the state. Even after receiving funds through the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act, the state is still projected to have an $8.5-9.5 billion deficit - and it’s only going to get worse.

    Simply put, it’s impossible for Illinois lawmakers to cut one-third of the state’s budget without slashing education and health care - which constitute 97% of the state’s spending -and it isn’t in the state’s best interest to do so.

    The state of Illinois already has:

    * The fifth lowest tax burden in the country;
    * The eighth lowest spending level in the country; and
    * The lowest number of state workers per capita in the country.

    What would budget cuts mean for Illinois families?

    Education

    * Cutting one third of the budget is equivalent to cutting 56, 057 Illinois teachers - 3 teachers for every 100 students in the state. (At your average 1,000-student school, that’s 30 teachers!)
    *
    Eliminating regional superintendents and their assistants, the School Breakfast Incentive program, the Illinois Free Lunch and Breakfast program, Early Childhood Education, Driver Education and Advanced Placement statewide would only save $450 million - 4.5% of the education budget - hardly enough to balance the budget.

    Health Care

    Emergency-roomCuts to Medicaid would have a ripple effect throughout Illinois’ health care system. A one-third reduction in the state’s Medicaid spending is equivalent to cutting:
    o
    7,000 nursing home workers statewide - that would mean 5 fewer caregivers in every publicly-funded nursing home in the state.
    o

    40,000 hospital workers statewide - that would mean 200 fewer workers in every publicly-funded community hospital in the state.
    *

    In order to cut home care spending by one third, the state would need to cut 17,000 seniors from the Community Care Program , a long-term care option that allows seniors to stay in their homes at a lower cost than institution-based care.
    *

    The state could also reduce the amount the state reimburses health care providers - doctors, hospitals, nursing homes, pharmacists, dentists and more - for services provided through Medicaid.
    o

    Reducing reimbursements to nursing homes by one third would save the state $170 million.
    o

    Reducing reimbursements to hospitals by one third would save the state $1 billion

    Colleges & Universities

    *

    Increasing tuition by $1,000 per state college or university student would only save the state $202.5 million.
    *

    To save $1 billion, the state would need to increase tuition by $5,000 per state college or university student.

    State Parks

    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%
    Closing one park in Illinois saves the state $1 million. In order to reduce spending on state parks by one third, the state would need to close 43 state parks.
    %%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%


    State Employees


    * Illinois has fewer employees now than it did in 1972-despite needed expansion of state programs and services. The result is higher caseloads and safety issues at state facilities.


    Cutting 5,000 state employees would only save the state $302 million.
    o Eliminating half of all the state employees in Illinois would save $1.75 billion.

    Rock

    Jim
     
  16. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Matt, there's a pretty recent thread on it. It's in mosquito heaven up in the North end of Wisconsin.

    go read the thread.

    HM
     
  17. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    HM---I've been to some places like Rhinelander. Sounds like a nice place but i don't know about a shooting park. Thanks for learning me.----Matt
     
  18. goatskin

    goatskin TS Member

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    Thank you Neil & Pat.

    Sarge, I agree that Trap occupies a special class of carping little-known in other shooting disciplines. I'm not sure why, but there it is.

    Arrogant or merely (sadly) experienced, I take minutes (of ANY org) at a (modest, minimally) discount from face value, until proven otherwise. The extracts I have seen are representative of the whole process and speak for themselves.

    That was & is interesting.

    For a fair while, I've thought Sparta was an affirmatively GOOD decision - NOT the 'least-bad' decision - but I have been unable to figure out if there was any 'there' to the extreme animus of many of the OH/PA/NE shooters, other than petulance and a bit of travel.

    Still, the State of Ohio's (non-)effort to keep ATA/Grand is puzzling. Does anybody have any insight there? Is what Dysinger is saying abt ATA saying: "NOhio, NoWay & NoHow" factual, or quasi- anyhow?


    Bob
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Bob, you _have_ gone to the August 2004 meeting and actually read the minutes, haven't you? There must be 15 pages of Indiana/Vegas/Sparta in there and I was there and you _can_ take them at face value. Everybody who spoke is named and the content of his or her remarks reproduced. You keep referring to "extracts." What are they?

    Neil
     
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