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Crossfire Problems

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Setterman, Jun 1, 2007.

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  1. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    I do not notice it on 16 yard targets, but I am fairly quick shooter. On handicap, when the process slows down, I think the brain and eyes fight each other. That is probably because there is not much "between the ears" to stop them. I lower my hold slightly on handicap, so hold should not be a problem.
     
  2. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    I do not have a dominant eye and shoot with both eyes open. The higher I hold, the worse the crossfiring problem. Phil Kiner's tips for one-eyed shooters are applicable to me. Hold low, look high is the only way I can shoot effectively. I've also noted the longer I track the bird, the more apt I am to crossfire.
     
  3. Tailbuster

    Tailbuster TS Member

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    Here's my take as an eye doctor. Think about it this way. You may well have a moderately dominant to very dominant eye and it happens to coincide with your dominant hand. So far so good.

    What happens when you read a sentence in a book? You follow along the right letters (saccadic eye movements)to form the word but when you get to the next sentence you switch eyes to pick up the beginning of the sentence. I see this as a very similar thing to what happens with the eyes when a target crosses to one side or the other. The eyes are just doing what they should. They should for most people want to do their job and pick up what is on that side. Unfortunately that eye might not coincide with the barrel of the gun. What to do about it? Depends on the individual but taking the problem eye out of the scenario is the general idea.

    all the best,
    john
     
  4. superxjeff

    superxjeff Active Member

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    What John says sure makes common sense. the bigger ? is how to fix it. I am sure that I would lose more targets if I went to shooting with one eye. It's always the lefts and not always the had lefts either. I am like the poster right eye and right hand dominant. Any othewr advice out there for all of us cross shoters?? Jeff
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    I asked a question on another thread concerning crossfiring when shooting, MikeTMX gave me his answer. Below is that question/answer. I don't have this problem but attempting to think it thru as if I did. Read my question and Mikes answer below, I think an answer lies somewhere in there? Keep the gun barrel/bead outa the way till the eyes lock onto that leading edge and use your peripheral vision to see the bead pass that leading edge? Could that be a part of the crossfiring problem? Not looking intently enough, long enough? Hap

    Subject: Two eye or One eye ?
    From: Hap MecTweaks
    Email:
    Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2007 - 10:20 AM CT
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    Is it possible that this "cross firing" we hear so much about, comes from not looking intently enough at the targets leading edge? That and keeping the eyes glued to it alone and seeing lead peripherally? Hap

    Reply to the Forum Thread


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Subject: Two eye or One eye ?
    From: miketmx
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    Date: Fri, Jun 01, 2007 - 10:39 AM CT
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    Yeah Hap, and sometimes the crossfiring can be put on hold until a really important shoot like the State Shoot and you are really trying hard to concentrate and the added stress brings the "Crossfire" back at the worst possible time. Been there, done that! The Uni-Dot works for me, others might need the Magic Dot patch of tape on their off shoulder eye lens.
     
  6. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    My eye doctor is a past president of the sports vision section of the AOA. To help me she has asked about this from her group (on more than one occasion). One Dr stated that there was 7 (if I remember correctly) different tests for eye dominance and you could pass all of them and still cross-fire. No one understands why this can/does happen.

    It is the single most un-diagnosed and most misunderstood problem in trapshooting. There is no one single solution for everyone. Also, there does not appear to be a "total cure". There is something to do with mounting the gun that tends to compound it.

    I do know that those that say shoot with both and it will get better are dreaming for most shooters. 98% of the women and as high as 30% of the men will never be able to shoot better with both eyes and no tape/dot etc than they will with tape/dot/close it as an aid.

    Wish I knew why, just know what happens.
     
  7. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Kolar Chick 27- I know a little about convergence but could you briefly expand on convergence excess? I thought that convergence was an all or nothing thing. Both eyes are looking at the same thing or they are not. What am I missing?

    Pat Ireland
     
  8. Tailbuster

    Tailbuster TS Member

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    Convergence excess is an ocular muscle/focusing condition that when a person looks at something up close their eyes turn in too much. While it exists I don't think it would affect enough people to enter a discussion about and since it is a near (reading) sort of problem it shouldn't really pertain too much in shooting. That said, the individual that has it may suffer from other shooting problems caused by the muscles working improperly.

    all the best,
    john
     
  9. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Thanks John-- One more question-- is it an "ocular muscle/focusing condition" or is it related to the 3 pairs of external muscles that move the eye ball?

    Pat Ireland
     
  10. Tailbuster

    Tailbuster TS Member

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    Pat,

    It's a muscle/focusing problem combined. There exists what we call an AC/A ratio. Basically, when you look at something close two things happen your eyes turn in and the muscle for focusing the lens kicks in. It turns out these two things are tied together. So for most of us the accommodation (focusing) and muscle turn are just right. For others with a high AC/A their eyes turn in too much at near. The opposite conditon (poor muscle turn in)is much more common.

    all the best,
    john
     
  11. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    John- I want to learn a little more from you and I suspect I may be the only one interested. I know that convergence and the ciliary muscles are controlled by the parasympathetic part of the third cranial but I thought the contraction moving the pupil inward and contraction of the ciliary muscles were coordinated but neurologically independent actions. I like technical stuff.

    Pat Ireland
     
  12. Tailbuster

    Tailbuster TS Member

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    Pat,

    Without going fully back to the books for a perfect answer. Contraction of the ciliary muscles to open the lens (not push the pupil- think of it as making the lens in the eye more convex thus more focusing power) and convergence of the extra-ocular muscles are not totally independent. There is a dependent portion and an independent portion. Can the extra-ocular muscles move without contraction of the ciliary muscles absolutely. Can one eye focus without the extra-ocular muscles moving, yes, somewhat. There is an inter-relationship however. As far as the innervation pathway that makes it work I would have to look that up.

    all the best,
    john
     
  13. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    John- I understand how the ciliary muscles stretch the suspensory ligament making the lens thicker. They are smooth muscles. The 3 pair of extra ocular muscles that control convergence are striated muscles. I assume that the smooth muscles are regulated by different pathways than the striated muscles. I also get lost after these pathways enter the control centers in the brain. The relationship between these two "apparently" independent muscles is fascinating to me. I guess I am looking for someone to help me understand and I am too lazy to look up the information myself.

    Pat Ireland
     
  14. Tailbuster

    Tailbuster TS Member

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    KC27,

    I truly believe that as a convergence excess sufferer you could have more problems than just near. Yours, however, would be a difficult problem to deal with unless your doctor could isolate an amount of prism at distance that stayed stable and helped you stay focused at distance. Adding a bifocal(or reading glasses) for reading will help the convergence problem there. So while I really sympathize with your plight, it fortunately does not effect many people. As you said, about the other doctor and the rarity of 10 times. If you haven't had a cycloplegic refraction (an eyedrop that keeps you from focusing to uncover undetected far-sightedness), I would suggest that you do. If you don't require any prism at distance and you are not far-sighted then I would suggest during long matches that you consider not focusing your beads at all even for alignment. Keep your focus further away.

    all the best,
    john
     
  15. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Everyone knows about the simple tests for eye dominance but I don't understand how a coach can tell if you are crossfiring. I got rid of the mystery misses on hard left angles by using a hooded Uni-Dot front bead. Both eyes are converging their focus on the distant target but "crossfire" is supposed to be the phenomena of the off shoulder eye noticing the bead in peripheral vision. I dunno what you call it if the off shoulder eye sees the hard left angle target and the on shoulder eye is still blocked by the barrel. What if the 'off shoulder' eye refuses to give control ie. "focus" back to the on shoulder eye when the barrel is no longer blocking the field of view. I know of two All American female shooters who don't buy into this "all females must crossfire" theory. Eye dominance is a left brain right brain thing and not a function of muscles. The expertise of a neurologist would help solve this mystery.
     
  16. Tailbuster

    Tailbuster TS Member

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    Miketmx,

    Cross firing would be when the off shoulder eye has control. Thus your barrel is not where it should be. You would shoot to the left of a target for a righty.. (hold your imaginary gun up and align it for your right eye, now close that eye and align it for your left). See what happens. As far as converging there should be really no convergence at optical infinity (>20 feet). As I alluded to earlier in the discussion. What shotgunners call a problem, I feel is really a perfectly natural way for your eyes to work. I also wonder if we may have super-trained that skill even further by reading since age 5. I believe Mr. Kiner uses a camera to catch it on his students. I wouldn't want to second guess Mr.Kiner because he has thought about it for many years before I even knew it existed.

    all the best,
    john
     
  17. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    Not trying to start a war of words here but, Kelsey if you shoot 2 feet behind it and hit it is because the left eye is doing the aiming. It is the one that is looking at the target. So if your off eye aims is that not a cross-fire??
    Call it whatever fancy name you want but the result is the same. The off eye takes over and you miss.
     
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