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Cross firing- left eye taking over-

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Phil Kiner, Jul 24, 2008.

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  1. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully this works
    Both are gifs from a power point so they are not exactly full motion video but should give the reader an idea of what happens on a cross-fire.

    Since this is actual it should address the question of how far from the target the shot actually is on a miss

    The second is a female shooter cross-firing, if you watch you can see the gun move to the left when the left eye takes over. You can also see that the shot is in front of and low. The low part is unusual for a cross-fire miss as most of the time a cross-fire miss will be hi-left for a right handed shooter.


    The first is a male shooter and as you can see his shot goes hi-left in the "traditional" manner. Note how similar the distance the two misses are to each other.

    Hopefully, this will generate some discussion. Phil
     
  2. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    I'm only getting one shooter (gif)....but it does show what's happening in my particular case.

    See you in March....

    Thanks.

    Curt
     
  3. shannon391

    shannon391 Active Member

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    Mr. Kiner,
    Nice action shot.
    Does the sight blinder help, or is the tape the only cure?
    Thank you,
    Shannon
     
  4. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    A good jab to the left eye with a sharp stick will cure the problem forever.
     
  5. HSLDS

    HSLDS Well-Known Member

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    Dear Mr. Kiner,

    In another thread we discussed the SMALL distance off the target these misses represent - much less than would be expected if you convert the distance between the eyes to a distance off the target you would expect to see at the time the target breaks (people speak of these misses in the range of inches - a few feet at most, yet the math shows you would expect the miss to be by about twelve feet).

    Any ideas as to why this is so?

    David D
     
  6. Phil Kiner

    Phil Kiner Well-Known Member

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    I had them both on the same and then edited and now cannot get the second one back on so hopefully it will show up here-pk

    img src="http://www.trapshooters.com/images/crossfire.gif"></
     
  7. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

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    These are very cool images!
     
  8. Tron

    Tron Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    This is great stuff Phil. Thanx for posting it!
     
  9. Texshooter

    Texshooter Member

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    Great pictures, really shows the value of filming in a training situation. I would be afraid to have a camera straped onto my gun, because what it would show. AJ
     
  10. Jon Reitz

    Jon Reitz Well-Known Member

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    This is incredible.
     
  11. SR1

    SR1 TS Member

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    Very very informative I would have never thought thats what is really happening.
     
  12. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Phil- Your nice video was totally unnecessary for me. I have seen myself cross fire often enough and do not need to see a replay of the problem I have now and then.

    For others, recognition of an occasional cross fire problem is critical. First step in correcting a problem is recognizing the problem. Changing choke tubes or raising the comb will not correct the cross fire problem.

    Nice stuff Phil

    Pat Ireland
     
  13. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Thanks Phil for posting these. I think they show that when the left eye takes over, the gun moves to the left just enough to re-align the bead between the left eye and the target, maybe about an inch. If the bead is about 36 inches from the eye, you would get a miss measured in an inch per yard so for a 35 yard shot, the center of the pattern moves left about 35 inches which looks to be about right from the video.

    It ain't trig but it works for me.

    And now a word for our Sponsor. Order Phil's latest CD that contains not only this info but a whole lot more. If it doesn't make you a better shooter, sell your gun.
     
  14. tad houston

    tad houston TS Member

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    What JBrooks said! Especially the last sentence.
     
  15. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Phil- This is a very important aspect of shooting performance. With your experience I would like to ask you a few questions.


    1. Does the phenomenon of cross shooting appear to happen in one direction more than another? Towards the recessive eye or away from the recessive eye.

    2. Which do you think happens first? The Visual shift or the checking of the gun causing the shift.

    3. Do you think sight blinders work? Can you still cross fire with them.


    I hope you will take the time to answer these questions. My PM is always on if you would prefer to PM me.

    Joe goldberg
     
  16. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

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    Joe, if you would have read at least one of the articles that Phil wrote for Trap & Field your questions would be answered.
     
  17. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    Would you kindly answer for him since I don't have subscription. Particularly question # 2.

    Thanks Joe
     
  18. BrowningGal

    BrowningGal TS Member

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    Gun Fitter:

    I can speak to #1 and #3 as they pertained to me. I'm a left-handed, left-eye dominant shooter, and when I started cross firing, I would mostly miss left hand shots from 1 @ 2. For me, I definitely had issues more in one direction than the other. And the sight blinders didn't work for me. The only thing the sight blinder will help with is not seeing two beads. I never saw two beads, so it makes sense that these didn't work for me. In the end, the only thing that worked for me was closing my right eye. In fact, I was working with Britt Robinson to transition to a one-eyed shooter a few months ago, and he took out his pocket knife and pried the sight blinders off both my guns. He also threw an empty shell at my butt, but that's another story for another thread. :)
     
  19. gun fitter

    gun fitter TS Member

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    BrowningGal Did you flinch? LOL
    Joe
     
  20. mayfield

    mayfield Member

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    Thanks for the posting Phil. I purchased your latest DVD primarily because I have developed a serious cross firing issue. You mention on the DVD that 30% of males have a cross firing problem. I am 65 and believe for men > 55 the number is higher. I am looking for a solution that does not require eye occlusion; so far no luck. I read on Dennis Devault's web site this solution:

    Take a rifle with a scope and set in your house, every night pick out an object across the room and focus the scope, making the object come in full sharp focus. Do this starting with one eye. Be sure the reticule of the scope is fully opened and you can see clearly. Then open the other eye. The off eye will want to see the outside of the scope but initially for just a brief moment you will be in full focus with the aiming eye only until the off eye makes you drift again. He said if you do not get discouraged and continue this training you can get your mind to focus all the vision to aiming eye only.

    Dennis' article said you do not see with your eyes but you see with your brain. I am trying this now. It is interesting to me that the left eye will see the object left and high in relation to the aiming eye through the scope. Keep up your good work on this issue. You come across as a very nice guy on the DVD. I will have DeVault make me a stock in the fall to help keep eyes level during mount and firing.
     
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