1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Could Your Club Get Closed Down?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ShotStop, Dec 11, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. ShotStop

    ShotStop Dedicatedto keeping gun clubs open and shooting.

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,672
    Every year we read about more gun clubs getting shut down because they are depositing lead where they shouldn’t be. In reality, lead shot is a pretty inert material but our environmental laws are not always inclusive of reality.


    There is an alternative. ShotStop is offering shot curtain panels that can contain almost all lead shot on gun club property. This also makes the shot easy to recover and the recovered shot can help pay for the installation. In fact, depending on volume, it can be a moneymaker.


    The most important thing you can do to protect your club is to be pro-active. If you even suspect you may have a problem with lead landing on an adjacent property or in ANY type of wetlands or sensitive habitat, get a curtain up BEFORE the authorities tell you to cease and desist.


    Let’s not lose any more clubs needlessly. Follow the link for more information.
     
  2. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2009
    Messages:
    17,194
    Location:
    IL(The gun friendly Southern Part)
    Good product but did you talk to the site owner about advertising?
     
  3. ljutic73

    ljutic73 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    5,411
    Location:
    Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
    Our club (Lethbridge Alberta)closed due to the president running off the trapshooters, spending money on a pseudo sporting layout that nobody was interested in and bragging to the landlord during lease negotiations that the land wasn't good for anything but a gun club because of the lead down the hill from the trap houses. So the landlord kicked the club out after the lease ran out, changed the locks and launched a lawsuit to try and clean up the site. As far as I know, all the club's money went to lawyers and I think the case has stalled. Glad I'd left some years before. The traps went to the local fish and game association who couldn't organize a good dog fight....

    Ron Burr
     
  4. JES

    JES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    456
    Only California!! LOL
     
  5. Gary Beer

    Gary Beer Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    288
    Location:
    Kingsburg, Ca
    Grntitan,

    When did you become a moderator for this forum page?
     
  6. ShotStop

    ShotStop Dedicatedto keeping gun clubs open and shooting.

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,672
    Hi Jan,

    We sure miss you at Redlands. Actually, we have already had inquiries from MA, WI, FL, OR and OH along with California. Plus, Gipson-Ricketts, lead miners extraordinaire, have several clubs that they believe could benefit from getting a curtain up before the hammer falls. Mining the lead and getting a check to help pay for the curtain is a great idea. If a club is interested, a call to them would be a good place to start.
     
  7. JES

    JES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    456
    Like Redlands was not great enough a shot curtain? presentation should be amazing!!!
     
  8. JES

    JES Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    456
    Like Redlands was not great enough a shot curtain? presentation should be amazing!!!
     
  9. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,424
    If you want to protect your club you should have a lead reclaimation program. You should have a detailed program that removes the lead. This will keep the authorities happy and help keep the club in operation. HMB
     
  10. slayer

    slayer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    2,931
    Location:
    beautiful northern michigan
    Can lead get into the ground water if you don't reclaim it? If not,what are exactly the environmental concerns with shooting and lead on the ground? Bill
     
  11. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,371
    To make the lead ever easier to reclaim they should make up a drape of some sort to cover the ground at the base of the shot curtains so the shot could fall on it rather than the ground ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  12. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2007
    Messages:
    7,951
    Location:
    Eastern Washington
    Yep, with the EPA and DOE anything is possible even if your following ALL the rules. Doesn't matter one bit if your pro-active or re-active.

    Less government will always be "better" government.
     
  13. shotshooter

    shotshooter Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    68
    WPT that is a good idea we kicked that around and we decided that we did not want anything different for the shooters to look at so we decided to compact and chip seal in front of the screen and buy a street sweeper and take care of it weekly. With the drape idea we also decided it was to easy for someone to steal our lead we have had that problem already, thanks for your idea Terry
     
  14. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,485
    You need a lead reclaimation program for your club even if you don't ever plan on harvesting the lead!

    Best Management Practices for Lead at Outdoor Shooting Ranges

    http://www.oshainfo.gatech.edu/lead/bestmgt.pdf

    The PDF is slow to open, on a slow server!
     
  15. ShotStop

    ShotStop Dedicatedto keeping gun clubs open and shooting.

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,672
    HMB is right. Every club should have a "Best Lead Management Program" document. The EPA, in conjunction with the National Shooting Sports Foundation, used to have a BLMP certificate you could get. Of course, Obama shut that down. However, the instruction document is still available if you google "EPA lead management."

    Bill, lead shot has virtually no realistic chance of polluting ground water. Unless the soil is highly acidic, lead forms that white oxidization you see on old shot on the ground and that seals it from breaking down into its toxic compounds. However, lead has been deemed bad at all levels so rational reality has little to do with it. One basic is that the EPA considers lead on an active gun range to be a recoverable resource but, if the range closes it immediately becomes a toxic waste that has to be cleaned and mitigated.

    One real important point. There is a HUGE difference between being proactive and reactive. If a club is proactive and has a BLMP program in place and has a shot curtain if it needs one to contain its shot on its property or out of sensitive habitat, the club has a good chance of escaping from being ordered to do those things. Once your club gets a letter from an environmental authority, the cost of complying can easily more than double just in legal, engineering and environmental assessment fees before any money is actually spent on mitigation. In fact, it may require expenditures that the club just cannot afford or measures that just aren't available. Thinking that you can wait and "just fix it" if someone tells you to is just plain head in the sand.
     
  16. gethenet10

    gethenet10 TS Member

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2006
    Messages:
    6
    When a club closes and has mitigating lead issues who is held responsible for clean up.Our club rents property and is low on cash as a result of cost and economy were not closed but sounds like its time to plan Who is responsible President,Officers,members or the landlord or all of the above????
     
  17. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    4,355
    Location:
    Prairie State
    In theory... a shot curtain is workable, but in reality, it cannot possibly be built to contain 100% of the lead. In our situation the EPAs would not sign off on that type of improvement... so we went non-toxic.

    Who is responsible for the eventual cleanup, depends upon the terms of the lease; although anyone can sue another for anything. Good contracts make good business arrangements...

    Being the best possible neighbor, limits the potential red flags. If you're shooting into water or over wetlands, you operate at your own risk...

    As was stated earlier, spent shot is not a RCRA issue, but "pollutants" into Waters of the US is a CWA issue. There is pending legislation to exclude ammunition from EPA jurisdiction... we'll see how that goes...

    I will say that "steel" shot has NOT proven to be a nail in the coffin. The early transition to steel shot ammo, proved painful, but forced us to change our operation business plan/model and makes our present program - members and programming more diverse and stronger.

    Our 2012 numbers are up 12% over last year and 2011 was a good year...

    Jay
     
  18. ShotStop

    ShotStop Dedicatedto keeping gun clubs open and shooting.

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2012
    Messages:
    3,672
    gethenet10,

    Who is responsible can be a very complex question and the answer can be arbitrary depending on who is demanding the cleanup. Typically, it is going to certainly be the current land owner plus PERHAPS whoever else may have been in title, either fee or leasehold and operating entities responsible for depositing the lead.

    There is also a current 9th Circuit ruling which is probably getting appealed that determined that lead shot was a consumer product when fired and deposited and, as such, could not be considered a toxic substance even after the closure of the range. Google "9th Circuit Otay gun range". This puts most of the burden on the landowner in possession at time of order of cleanup.

    If you think you may have a problem you really need to seek the advice of an experienced environmental attorney. I think the National Shooting Sports Foundation or the NRA could point you to one.
     
  19. W.P.T.

    W.P.T. TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,371
    When the Old Phoenix Club was in the process of getting ready to close, we had EPA people out there almost on a daily basis when the lead was being mined ... They wanted removal to be 97 % or better to meet their standards and be considered uncontaminated or cleared ground ... They did core test after core test to try and come to a conclusion of what they wanted and how deep they had to go to to get it, not sure that was ever established ... The lead was mined and they still weren't happy with the results so they wanted the soil skimmed off of the top and removed till they got the percental numbers they were looking for ... I am not sure how many thousands of tons of dirt was skimmed and then it had to be removed and relocated to a certified dump so it could be covered with who knows how many hundreds of thousands of tons of dirt so it would never been seen or heard of again ... The EPA can get pretty nasty if you give them a bad time or do not comply with their wishes or the wishes of who ever showed up that day from the EPA ... I guess you had to be there ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
     
  20. b12

    b12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,049
    Somebody's making a hell of a lot of money on the reclamition shit. Ifpeople would keep an eye on politations thier would not be any problem with this so call lead crap. Th lead falling in the ground does not hurt a dang thing and thats proven by government test. Its the undertable talk buy special groups and the EPA to make these clubs very hard to function.
    Can't blame the reclaimers, that what they are in business for. They are not going to do anything to slow their business though. Wild Bill
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.