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Cops with guns are DANGEROUS (to each other!)

Discussion in 'Off Topic Threads' started by pyrdek, Feb 10, 2013.

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  1. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    From Pittsburgh PA area. ( You have to get about half way through the article to find out who the shooter was!)


    BALDWIN BOROUGH (KDKA) – A police officer was injured in a Baldwin Borough shooting early Sunday morning.

    According to police, the shooting happened while four officers were responding to a domestic call in the 5100-block of Elmwood Drive shortly before 4 a.m.

    A woman inside the home initially called police claiming her boyfriend was walking around with a gun and was upset. Later in the call, she told police the man had put the gun away and that police were no longer required.

    However, police still responded to the scene. At some point, one of the officers fired their rifle and the shot struck a fellow officer.

    A second officer heard the shot being fired and also discharged his rifle.


    During a press conference Sunday morning, Baldwin’s police chief said the injured officer is a 14-year veteran and had undergone surgery. He was believed to be in stable condition at a local hospital.

    The two officers who fired their weapons have been placed on administrative leave. It is unclear what prompted the first officer to fire his weapon at this time.

    There are no other reported injuries and the man inside the home could face charges at a later date.

    Stay With KDKA.com For More Details
     
  2. CharlieAMA

    CharlieAMA TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    Sounds like - Shoot first, ask questions later. The Keystone cops could do better than this. But wait, this is the Keystone state isn't it?
     
  3. Catpower

    Catpower Molon Labe TS Supporters

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    More people to pass the test for Gene's gun control policy

    Where has he been I have been chasing grand kids fir the last 4 days, haven't been able to get on here too much, but haven't seen any pearls of his wisdom posted lately, hope he didn't get his tit in the wringer again
     
  4. noknock1

    noknock1 Active Member

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    It is easy to condemn mistakes by law enforcement, but we should remember that each and every day there are plenty of situations that probably number in the dozens if not hundreds in which law enforcement are in possible deadly force situations.

    How many of us arm chair quarterbacks have been first responders on scene with minimal information and had to draw your weapon or use command presence; or use a taser or expandable baton, verbal commands, or just shoot someone because based on court accepted force continuum that is what had to be done to restore order??? Multiple times a week???

    A hundred times a year??? A thousand times not half way through your career? How many of us have come home with a broken nose, black eyes, bruises, lacerations, bites, etc???

    Right, wrong, or indifferent, it is a different world right here in the U.S. A guy puts on a military uniform and now, as opposed to 45 years ago the guy/gal gets a smile and a 'thank you' as they should... Law enforcement in this country, well that is a different story.

    Thank goodness that law enforcement (lots of prior military in the ranks) don't keep 'score' and will risk life and limb to protect a person that calls for help even though they might have just disparaged law enforcement on some forum about being incompetent...

    There is a special place in Heaven for for law enforcement and all first responders.

    We as a nation love to second guess everything from the luxury of a warm or cool, (local environment dictated) home or office. We as a nation love to sit back and criticize coaching decisions, and plays by sports heroes, we collectively love to put our noses into military issues where civilians are accidentally shot, etc.. Although, there doesn't seem to be much criticism of military on this forum with regards to innocent kills or 'collateral damage,' thank goodness for that!

    Regardless, go ahead an criticize and make fun of law enforcement and pound one's chest about how law enforcement is incompetent and how "if I was there... " ...blah, blah, blah, (not necessarily remarks on this thread, just stuff I have observed over 10+ years on this forum regarding law enforcement), however, if law enforcement with the intense or not so intense, let's say minimal training in some cases makes mistakes, then what are the odds of some random civilians with concealed carry permits not totally messing up a situation?

    We should talk about law enforcement mistakes, we as a society need to take steps to provide the absolute best training to help prevent mistakes. But "keystone cops.." Really? No one on here knows the details of that incident except those on scene and command staff.

    Lots of bitterness on this site recently, more so then in some years, guess ebb and flow...

    Let's not judge to harshly those that choose to try and protect our society, there is a learning curve, and plenty of policemen, firemen, and military members have overreacted to situations, and guess what, kids in wombs right now that will be future soldiers, policemen, etc... will end up screwing up. But GOD bless everyone of them, and once they 'learn'... they are invaluable.
     
  5. Bill Roberts

    Bill Roberts Active Member

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    Well said noknock1..

    Bill
     
  6. coyote1234

    coyote1234 Member

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    I have yet to meet a cop who can outshoot me or outthink me.
     
  7. JIM SIMS

    JIM SIMS Member

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    noknock1,

    I'll 2nd that

    Jim Sims
     
  8. Blee450

    Blee450 TS Member

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    Maybe they were too excited for some action after seeing the beating the state troopers put on a guy Friday afternoon in the Baldwin district?
     
  9. NJCOP

    NJCOP TS Member

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    thank you noknock (warrant I take it)
     
  10. larryx

    larryx Member

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    Well said noknock1. coyote 1234 that what Dillinger said.
     
  11. SeldomShoots

    SeldomShoots Active Member

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    nonock1, you make a good point. However, when I see so many cops screaming and yelling at people to get on the ground on the news, cop car cams or cameras by a member of the public, it is clear they are excited and wound up. If someone screams and yells at a person, its natural for everyone around to get wound up.

    I would think a bull horn used to firmly state the actions requested by one officer and the other officers remaining calm and quiet,(for better aim and judgment) would result in a more thorough and safe arrest for all involved. When everyone is yelling including the cops, they all get nervous and wound up. Especially younger inexperienced officers. This is no different than a dog that bites out of instict and fear so to speak.

    Maybe a little less of "need to take the subject down" and a little more "talk the subject down". Personally, I believe if a subject doesn't comply with firm but calm requests or orders, then fire ONE well placed round. Just because one shot is fired shouldn't mean that everyone opens fire. Cops can shoot much better if they are calm and breathing correctly. My point is that it looks like many cops work themselves into a nervous/panic reaction.
     
  12. 548

    548 Guest

    <iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/neUaSTSKFZc" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>




    "Don't know how many it will take to kick my azz, but I know how many their going to use"

    Perfect example in this case being debated.
     
  13. noknock1

    noknock1 Active Member

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    I have to disagree, just being on scene in a deadly force situation/ confrontation causes the FIGHT OR FLIGHT chemical cocktail to kick-in.

    <!DOCTYPE html>
    <html>
    <body>


    Stuff that happens to your body when you are in fear of your life


    </body>
    </html>

    Bull horns and such are not going to stop adrenaline kicking in when you are face to face with an armed assailant that is saying he is going to kill you.

    Fine motor skills are gone after ones heart beat goes over 140 bps give or take. At that point everything is GROSS motor skills!

    Auditory exclusion kicks in for not only the good guys but the bad guys as well...

    Ever wonder why combat vets subjected to numerous bursts of rifle fire for a number of months if not years are not completely deaf? The auditory canal swells and blocks out sound under stress. It is a self preservation act that just happens. However, shoot trap or whatever on a range without hearing protection in a NO STRESS environment and you will one will suffer hearing damage quickly. What that means in a civilian law enforcement setting is that EVERYONE ON SCENE HAS PROBLEMS HEARING EACH OTHER. The bad guys have to be yelled at to ACTUALLY hear lawful commands, etc...

    Tunnel vision occurs and is an issue that has cost law enforcement and military their lives... Google <i>auditory exclusion and tunnel vision</i> for further info...

    Yelling depends on the event, a situation with a deranged person with a knife or gun near a civilian populace that has evolved quickly is completely different than a person that is barricaded with a hostage.

    Of course the barricaded situation warrants a negotiator to come in and do his thing calmly. But then again there is a perimeter set up and usually no one but the hostages are in immediate danger.

    It is not realistic to think that law enforcement, or military go into a deadly confrontation completely calm and then they work themselves up into a frenzy because someone is yelling at the bad guy. People are people (and besides some of the RAMBOS on this site that pipe in now and then that they can shoot better, blah, blah, blah, than any cop they have every met..) and people even though they have been through training still don't want to get hurt or die.

    Remember, these deadly confrontations do not have a pre-written script in which the good guy wins like in Hollywood. All too often, the bad guys win which serves as grim reminders to the survivors to honor their sacrifice by learning from their mistakes.

    Anyone who has been in combat or any life and death situation in which someone a few feet from you who wants to kill you... knows that your heart rate is through the roof and the adrenaline flowing through you in those moments in monstrous.
     
  14. SeldomShoots

    SeldomShoots Active Member

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    nonock1, that is interesting information, and no doubt that is likely what is happening, in many intances. But it somewhat proves my point about the cops getting worked up to the point that they become dangerous to each other and the public.

    I don't have a problem with a non-complying suspect being tased or shot, however, for multiple officers to open up and empty their guns in many situations shows a lack of training to overcome the mental and physical stress that they will face in these types of situations, or an inablilty to deal with it. Maybe more stress training for officers geared toward training them to compensate for the natrual reaction of the body, mind and effect of adrenaline should be researched and taught at their respective accademies, and how to cope with it in the field.
     
  15. CalvinMD

    CalvinMD Well-Known Member

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    I dont know if the ultra liberal media has even let this out to the outside world other than as a tool to blame that nasty gun...but Md has in the past week had a police instructor shoot one of his cadet students in the forehead with a live round from his service weapon, ..in a facility during an exercise where only training pieces with blanks and simunition was allowed...ooops?
     
  16. pyrdek

    pyrdek Well-Known Member

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    Here are two links about the Maryland training "Accident" (or is that negligence?)
    Officer Horsing around with a gun Link 1

    Fox News video Link 2
     
  17. noknock1

    noknock1 Active Member

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    We will have to agree to disagree, bullhorns and 'designated' shooters, etc., isn't practical on the streets in a situation that develops quickly. I still know that it is not the yelling that gets cops worked up, it is the person with the weapon that wants to kill a cop that gets cops worked up. Life and death situations have a tendency to get people worked up if it is their own life that is on the line.
     
  18. SeldomShoots

    SeldomShoots Active Member

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    nonock1,

    Am I misunderstanding something? We both agree there is an issue here, although we may disagree what may be the greater cause of the problem. Nevertheless, could you tell me if there is any stress training for these types of sitations in law enforcement, and should there be? Perhaps training to help an officer become somewhat de-sensitized or better able to handle this type of hyped up reaction is in order, or whatever training is in place, maybe it needs to be looked at again. I don't think you mean to say, this is the way it is and law enforcement should not work toward improving their reactions in these situations, or do you? Certainly, if people get scared and hyped up in these situations, it would appear they may have chosen the wrong career, if they cannot overcome it.
     
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