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Compulsory shoot fees including targets and trophy

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by midalake, Apr 7, 2008.

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  1. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    There seems to be a cancer in the ATA membership that seems to be spreading. I urge ALL club members that write club ATA programs to follow this thread. In my early years of shooting ATA I would NEVER see programs written with “targets only” in a clubs main shooting program. However these days it seems to be finding more of a home into shoot programs. So I ask all of you what is the difference of shooting “targets only” from regular club practice or league shooting???? The only difference is you pay more for them because I do not know of one club that throws ATA: “target only” birds cheaper than league or practice.
    In my opinion when I go to an ATA shoot I go to COMPETE!!! This is what the ATA is about!!!! To give shooters a platform to shoot against other shooters and compete. My question to you is, if you do not want to compete, why do you join???? For me I do not care if there are three squads or 100, I just want to have the ability to leave my house and compete. I shoot league and or practice all of the time so why should I do the same at an ATA shoot?? What would be the difference? I hear all the time “I am looking for cheap targets” FOR WHAT??? So you can go to your state shoot or Grand or even pad your average in a lower class??? Well the ATA has given you this chance with a rule change a few years back. You can register your league targets, or get three friends together and shoot cheap targets until the cows come home. I feel there are a few who have forgotten what an ATA event should be. It should be an event where you sign up and the price you pay is for targets and prizes!![Options extra] It is part of the cancer that is diluting our shoots and putting pressure on our clubs to cater to a few loud barkers. Well hear this I have NEVER shot ATA “targets only” and will never do so. If it gets to that point I will stay home. I urge others who want to keep the integrity of the ATA and competition trap shooting to do the same. I also encourage the ATA to take a more aggressive approach to help teach clubs and the ATA membership.

    GS
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I never have thought I had much right to tell another shooter how to spend his money or why he should shoot trap the way - and for the reason - I'd like him to.

    If there's a cancer in trapshooting it's the idea that one sort of shooting is "more valuable" than some other. There's room for both and both should be treated with equal respect - by both sides.

    Neil
     
  3. mixer

    mixer Well-Known Member

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    Midalake wrote:

    "I do not know of one club that throws ATA: “target only” birds cheaper than league or practice."

    Come down to S. Florida and shoot at Markham Park. Practice is $7.50/25. ATA registered is $30/100 with fees, so it's even there but we add $8 to the first event entry to cover the cost of a catered lunch.


    Eric
     
  4. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    What if the prize only and no money but the prize was not revealed until you showed up for registration and it is then you found it was a trinket just slightly above dollar store quality and there are no options to "gamble" on.

    Would you still shoot?
     
  5. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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  6. primed

    primed Well-Known Member

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    Same song. Same singer. Different thread. Is this ALL you have to complain about? Variety is the spice of life.

    Bob
     
  7. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect Mr. Winston I am saddened by your caviler response. It shows how much I now know this is a problem all the way to the top. This is not the same ATA I joined over 16 years ago. I spent many years writing shoot programs and learning from some of the best at it [Thanks Dick and Arlene Otto]. My comments are focused to the small to midsize clubs I see throwing more “targets only”. This is a tie in to what the purpose of the ATA is for. I happen to think it is to give shooters the ability to compete…I emphasize COMPETE. I see nothing in the origin of the ATA being some type of country wide keeper of league scores. I think more new shooters, and clubs need to be educated on what may or may not be a good shoot program. We have a fantastic ATA rule that allows many different ways to get ATA targets into our score cards. I am appalled at the clubs that seem to feel the need to do this format on a shooting weekend open to the public. When I leave my door my closest club to shoot at for registered targets is two hours away. I will not waste any of my time [or money] on ATA “targets only”
    Mr. Newbius I read shoot programs VERY carefully, I would not shoot at a club as you describe. Also for the record I play very few options, and then only at the big shoots.
     
  8. jbmi

    jbmi Well-Known Member

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    In the past here is why I've shot "target only". I didn't have the required targets to qualify for my class or yardage. Why would I want to compete with A shooter at the 16 and 22 yard line shooter with 0 targets to my name.
    When I got the required target numbers and established my class and yard line, I did start paying for options.
    Now my wife and son are shooting and they also are only shooting targets until they get the required numbers in. I don't think they'd become ATA members if they were required to entire all the options.
    Or are you looking for the little guy to provide money for the big dogs, I'm not.
     
  9. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    I must be dense here. I don't really see a problem.

    If someone wants to shoot targets only, it is no skin off of my nose. Let him/her shoot as many as he/she likes.

    Doesn't affect me or my shooting.

    Sounds like much ado about nothing.

    Hauxfan!
     
  10. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Several years ago, I began organizing registered shoots at two local clubs. We held those shoots in the fall and spring and the goal was to provide local shooters with a way to get their target minimums met for the upcoming summer tournament season without a lot of traveling and do so at minimum cost. We gave away no trophies and didn't even bother with options - we charged $12 per hundred (plus ATA and PA daily fees) and usually were busy throwing targets until late afternoon. One of those clubs still does that today and I believe their current charge is $14 per hundred.

    Remember, trapshooting is supposed to be fun. No one ever said you had to be able to win something or gamble to do that.

    Ed
     
  11. dverna

    dverna Active Member

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    Midalake
    You have a good handle.

    Row your leaky canoe to the MIDdle of A LAKE and wait for it to slowly sink.

    It is characters like you that discourage new shooters from shooting ATA and drive club shooters away.

    Don
     
  12. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Every year we have a group of PA shooters that attend the State shoot. They spend their day touring vendors row and eating cherries. They also spend a good portion of the day shooting targets on the practice trap. I will question the sanity of individuals that drive 150 miles to shoot practice, eat cherries and brag how they would have won something if they actually entered!!
     
  13. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    Roger C. I am disappointed in the current amount of clubs who had fliers in the Wisconsin State Shoot calendar that do not give any option other than shooting for "targets only" The ATA was not created for the purpose of nation-wide practice. It is created to give trap shooters the ability to compete, hopefully on a fair and standardized basis. The ATA several years back has changed the rules so you only need three people in an event to register. So people with the likes of: dverna, jim_kneecricket, and The Kissable Wanker can stay home call their one or two friends [if they have any] and register cheap targets until their blue in the face. However seeing this creep into shoot programs more and more is very disturbing. If you did not want to compete WHY JOIN??? Stay home and be miserable at your own home club. I myself shoot at two different clubs during the week and like to go out and COMPETE on the weekends. If a club just offers "targets only" why go??? I will stay home and support my home clubs. My point in clubs offering shoot programs open to the public should have the cost of targets and trophies as one price. If you want to play extra options of course that is up to you.

    GS
     
  14. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    MIA I lived many years ago in the Milwaukee area. But the two closest clubs for me to shoot at are Brown county and Langlade County, both are an equal distance.

    GS
     
  15. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Seems simple. All the "targets only" shooters pay the same price as everyone else-maybe even give them a dollar off regular price. That should keep them happy-shouldn't it!!
     
  16. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    In our world, targets only means that there is no trophy or prize money for winning a class or yardage group. This means that the cost per hundred is less because there is no money needed to buy trophies or pay out.

    It has nothing to do with options.

    If your club is having a shoot, the primary purpose of which is to provide competition, then it is important that the all the shoot fees include a budgeted amount for trophies or prize money. Otherwise, you may not meet your prize budget if too many shooters opted to shoot "targets only" at a lower cost.

    If the shoot is primarily to make target minimums or reach certain goals, such as marathons, then targets only fees work fine.
     
  17. waverider

    waverider Well-Known Member

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    midalake,

    Are you miffed because clubs are offering registered shoots that have no prize money and/or trophies?

    Or that clubs doing larger tournaments and offering participants a "targets only" option?

    Jason
     
  18. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

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    Registered shoots that have no prize money and/or trophies.

    GS
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Why do you care? You aren't gong to go anyway; if others want to go, how can that possibly affect you?

    There's a widely misunderstood - and overestimated - "power" of ATA rules. Seldom do we hear what is effectively the "whole" rule, which is the way it will work in practice.

    Let's take MDL at his word. Clubs will not throw shoots unless they have prize money and/or trophies. So the rule swill be, in effect:

    "Members will not shoot at clubs where there are no prize money and/or trophies."

    I think that is a statement of fact. There are some members who will will not, and MDL is one of them. But the unstated part of the rule is: "If members elect to shoot, they must do so at clubs which offer prize money and/or trophies." The "elect to shoot" proviso is never stated, but is, in fact, a critical part of any rule promulgated by the ATA. People do not have to shoot this game. As the theater says "If they want to stay away, you can't stop them."

    All this stuff I've been reading here recently, from "mandated" one-ounce loads to mandatory reductions to three-hole targets are framed in the misguided confidence that "shooters must."

    This is nonsense. It may well be that "If they want to register targets, shooters must . . ." but you can't make people shoot. They do it for the fun of it, and there's plenty of other things they can do instead if they feel that their interests at the ATA are not being served. This registered shooting is _voluntary_ and we can't make anyone take a single additional shot. We can try to make the rules such that they will want to take part, and that's certainly in the best interests of everyone on this website, but you can't make people who are at shoots for recreation bow to your will if they don't want to. They will fish, golf, or Epicurean cook instead and they should. If we can't give them what they are looking for in recreation, we have no right to expect them to support us with their participation.

    The fact that there are shoots with targets only, and the clubs offering them still are in business, means that they fill a need in our sport. I promise you, take away that element of choice thinking they have no other way to spend recreational capital, they will simply vote with their feet and will not be at other shoots; they will be spending their time and money on something else. And they should.

    Neil
     
  20. Mr Newbius©

    Mr Newbius© TS Member

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    This discussion may be a good midmorning popcorn eating read.
     
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