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Compressed air cylinder instead of hydraulic

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Tdog, Jan 17, 2010.

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  1. Tdog

    Tdog TS Member

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    I have an older P/W hydraulic system for my P/W 900. I object to the continous noise from the pump. Several months ago someone posted that they built their own auto-system using a compressed air cylinder. I am interested in doing the same. I searched and can't find that thread. I'm specifically interested in the control valve(s) used and air pressure required.


    Tony
     
  2. oletymer

    oletymer Member

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    Why not get the electric drive?
     
  3. Tdog

    Tdog TS Member

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    Oletymer I'm pretty cheap and think I can do the compressed air system for much less $$. I do think that the electric auto drive is the way to go.

    Tony
     
  4. skeet_man

    skeet_man Well-Known Member

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    I'm going to be getting a hydro for the PW shortly. Has anyone thought of building a box to put around the hydro out of foam insulation? Would this cause any problems?
     
  5. blkcloud

    blkcloud Active Member

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    Running something on air is not really all that cheap, for the amount of energy used to keep the psi up the electric is way cheaper in the long run.. unless your running a hose from your neighbors shop..lol..
     
  6. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Rem31 TC, do you know why all heavy equipment run hydraulics instead of pneumatics? How many 100 PSI's will it take to perform the operation with the cylinder you plan on using? And are you going to put a muffler on the exhaust?
     
  7. Unknown1

    Unknown1 Well-Known Member

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    <I>"I'm going to be getting a hydro for the PW shortly. Has anyone thought of building a box to put around the hydro out of foam insulation?"</i>

    skeet_man,

    Foam is good for insulating against the cold but it takes mass to insulate against sound and foam doesn't have any.

    MK
     
  8. W.R.Buchanan

    W.R.Buchanan Member

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    Guys: I have built automated machinery for the last 30 years. I am the inventor of the Omniturn CNC lathe, along with numerous purpose specific machines. I have some idea of what I am talking about on this subject.

    I watch all of the "systems" that are offered to automate reloading presses with the idea that maybe some day I could develope a product that would be superior. Most of the possible systems have already been done.

    All of the methods of moving the press have advantages and dis-advantages.

    With air cylinders the main issue would be to keep the operating pressure absolutely constant. This is NOT easy to do! It seems like it would be, but it varies minutely for several reasons, and every fluctuation in AP will result in one or more of the operations "varying". I have used air to automate many machines and there are places where it works well, and I could make a reloading press work well with it. But it is not the type of thing the average joe could maintain. It would have to be adjusted often.

    Obviously you don't want the powder drop function varying. Or your crimp changing throughout the run. As far as power and air usage, these problems can be overcame easily, by simply choosing the correct air cylinder for the job, and having a Compressor that can keep up.

    Hydraulic is the easiest to control, as there are many ways to control hyd pressure closely. Noise and leaks are the down side. And NO don't cover the pump up with a padded (insulated) box you will burn it up.

    The under the floor solution is a novel fix. Maybe out back in a little house would be better, all you need is longer hoses. Alot of people do that with their compressors.

    The electric solution appears to be the simplest to do, however the ways I have seen it done don't allow for changes in the operation or vary the power applied to fine tune the process. They just activate an electric motor with a crank on it, which is connected to the linkage of the press. It makes one revolution then stops. What most don't see is that the actual power delivered thruout the rotation "Varies Significantly". Just like the power on a bicycle crank varies at different points thru the rotation. Heavy between 2-4 o'clock, light between 4-8, while the required load stays constant (relatively) That said, I have seen several that appear to work just fine.

    All have one requirement that absolutely MUST BE MET. They must be idiot proof! Especially if you can't EMER STOP the machine! If you sell something and some moron crushes his hand,,, there goes your house, and all it takes is one!. Dave at C&H stopped producing their Auto Champ Progressive Pistol Press because people were actually squishing their fingers while working the lever! You'd think they'd stop when it started to hurt, HUH? It wasn't idiot proof enough. I have one, I like it.

    I never release a marginal product, and I don't think any decent mfg would. In fact I just scrapped one because it wouldn't be easy enough to install for the majority of people and I saw too many returns in the future. It takes alot of operation at the factory to find out if a product is going to work under many different conditions and be idiot proof. It also helps to have some idiots to see if it is. Some outfits over look this part of development. Did YOU read the instructions,,,,Most don't!

    Outfits like MEC, P/W, and others have automated machines that are well proven, and work well, and are backed by company support.(and Liability Insurance!) Even the most expensive machines are really not that expensive, if your time matters, or you physically can't pull the handle any more. They can pay for themselves and would be well worth the investment. Give me a break guys, you'll spend $20K on a shotgun, but $2000 for a first class loader is too much? Gun no work without shells?

    One last point. With a machine you pull the handle on, There is "FEEL". You can feel if the cycle is happening right and you can immediately stop if it is not. This is not true of all automated machines, all they do is GO until their cycle is complete. If something gets in the way, they still try to complete that cycle, even if it breaks something. Computer controlled machines can have load sensors to get by this problem, but they are well beyond what we are trying to do here. In this respect Hyd machines could do the most damage because of their power, and air or electric machine would stall.

    I have crashed many a machine, and sometimes it's no big deal, sometimes it costs a bunch to fix. Just don't get hurt. Idiot proofing is the true test of the machine designer.

    Be Safe!

    Randy
     
  9. Trapshooter

    Trapshooter Well-Known Member

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    Randy. Please design a machine to put the wads in. Todd
     
  10. W.R.Buchanan

    W.R.Buchanan Member

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    Todd: Would work just like a Lee bullet feeder on a cartridge press.

    Next.

    Randy
     
  11. 410 JIM

    410 JIM TS Member

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    Tony, I have a compressed air setup with attachments for 4 loaders(all gauges)(warning skeet equipment-cuss word on this site))that I would sell at a reasonable price. It works quite well but I shoot boxes instead of hundreds of shells and quit using it. The outfit has a foot switch, cylinder, and hardware to hook up 4 Mec 9000's. All you need is a compressor and you're in business. I'll sell it for $200.00 shipped or make me an offer The outfit isn't new but it works and has had little use. I've had it for several years and it is still in looks to be in very good shape. Jim XXXXXLTBUBBABO@BELLSOUTH.NET
     
  12. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    The key to this is to use air over hydraulic. It smoothes the operation and and is very consistant. Im running a PW 950 and have had zero issues so far. I couldnt of done it without the help of a friend at Mark Hydraulics in Omaha. He makes a really nice set up for mecs...factory looking for sure.

    Benefits, its smoooooth and QUITE, Has foot control and I can stop the machine at any point at any time during motion. I sat down and loaded 1100 shells the other night and I really enjoy it. Another friend at work just turned his PW over to same set up. It was not without issues but once you have it dialed in its very nice. Keep in mind you WILL need 120PSI to 150 PSI. It gets marginal at around 120. Air is plentiful for me but my friend only has a old craftsman home version compressor. He had to put a new regulator on it and blow off valve to get its range up to specs. He is up and going now and having good luck. I will post up some pics tommorow and a video. Cost to do this is right at 300.00-350.00
     
  13. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    Air is a conpressible fluid. With an air powered system a tremedous amount of energy can build up if a jam is encountered and all of this energy can be released at one time. This can be very dangerous. That is why tasks that require smooth, even control are done with hydraulic or mechanical systems.

    Jim Skeel
     
  14. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Jim, air is a gas.
     
  15. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    TOOLMAKER251: I thought fluids included liquids, gases, and plasmas. At least that is how I remember it from my Fluid Mechanics class.

    Jim Skeel
     
  16. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Air is a fluid, but compressable in a confined space. At least that's the way I learned in aeronautics school.

    ss
     
  17. TOOLMAKER 251

    TOOLMAKER 251 Active Member

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    Jim, you are right that oxygen and inert gas's can be converted into a liquid state, I thought the topic was about using pneumatics for mechanical motion.
     
  18. Didreckson

    Didreckson Active Member

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    One noise solution is a printer cabinet, if you can find one used. They have fans built in to cool, and paper slot that is perfect to bring the hoses through. New it would be ridiculous, but if found for a great price (and dot matrix wide carriage printers are rare now), rather perfect to shield noise, but keep the parts cool.
     
  19. skeeljc

    skeeljc Supporting Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    TOOLMAKER251: My point is air is compressible. It can therefore store energy. That energy can be released when you do not expect it!

    Jim Skeel
     
  20. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Isn't electricity the most controllable with variable frequency drives? Probably very expensive but the most controllable.
     
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