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club being held accountable for Lead contamination

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by grntitan, May 18, 2011.

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  1. grntitan

    grntitan Well-Known Member

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    Wow, sounds very sticky. Hope you guys have some good attorneys. I'm on your side with the info provided but i don't know how the law actually reads on this. Good luck. This is one of those cases that could open up a big can of worms for others if it doesn't go right.
     
  2. rtclark21

    rtclark21 Member

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    Are there any clauses in your previous lease that provides for any clean-up / reclaimation? If not, doesn't seem plausible that the City or landlord can demand additional clean-up costs.

    Sounds like a landlord issue to me, but would consult with a real estate attorney to validate.
     
  3. timberfaller

    timberfaller Well-Known Member

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    If its is "sold" property, I would say its now a buy beware issue. You never owned it either. I would think that only the "legal" owners could be held responsible for any cleanup.

    They should have no recourse on coming back on you guys. Check out your lease agreement. If there is nothing in it about cleanup after termination, the owner can only really "ask" you to help. But you already have when you reclaimed the shot over the time you were there.

    You should be out of the picture based on the lease being terminated back in 1995.

    Talk to a good land attorney, your first call is usually "free" with a reputable attorney.

    Good luck. Hopefully they don't get any greenies involved, they are just plain nasty people!
     
  4. Joe Potosky

    Joe Potosky Well-Known Member

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    http://www.nssf.org/ranges/ASR/
     
  5. 525Shooter

    525Shooter Member

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    You would think that since everyone knew the land was already contaminated that "full disclosure" requirements would have been met. Especially since the city new they had to clean it up.
     
  6. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    If you want a good resource, contact Leo Dombrowski, who is an attorney. Leo and his firm maintain the reference database for the NSSF. Based in Chicago, call Leo at Wildman Harrold and feel free to use my name.

    Leo successfully represented the City of Naperville, Naperville Park District and the Naperville Sportsman's Club in an environmental lawsuit and is well versed in lead issues.

    You can have confidence in this man. PM me for details about his representation if you're so inclined.

    Jay Spitz
     
  7. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    A lot of misinformation

    Any time you reclaim lead you make contamination worse- much worse- it is the particulate matter that seeps into and through the soil into the ground water.

    When you "reclaim lead" you are actually grinding the lead up and creating more particulate matter which penetrates through the surface soil

    There is no "as is" purchase as far as environmental contamination and litteraly every owner or possessor of the land may be held liable forever. Forever. In most jurisdictions

    See a local lawyer that deals with this. Members and officers might have responsibility also.

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  8. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    The clean up cost should be part of the brownfield grant. What happened with that?? Check the regulations that pertain to the Brownfield.

    Don
     
  9. 221

    221 Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    What Gene says......ya cannot contaminate land anymore and leave it for someone else to clean up.
     
  10. GoldEx

    GoldEx Active Member

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    Well, I am married to an environemental geologist who deals with state and municipal entities on a daily basis. The laws pertaining to environmental clean ups vary greatly from state to state. Sometimes the problem is the person that created the mess and other times it is the owners responsibility. Sometimes shared. It can also make a dirrerence if the state has a BEA (Baseline Environmental Assessment) procedure in place like we did in MI. You really need to talk to your DEQ (Department of Envoronmental Quality here in MI) and find out what your legal liability really is and not wonder. The state regulations in NE (I believe that is where you are) will be very straight forward. Once you know what your liability is, go from there but you need to know what you are up against first.

    Jeff
     
  11. Brian in Oregon

    Brian in Oregon Well-Known Member

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    Better lawyer up.

    In Oregon, an old mercury mine, the Bonanza Mine, dating to 1865, closed in 1932.

    A logging railroad owned by Roach Timber Company laid tracks through the area using mine tailings for the roadbed. This was around 1900.

    Weyerhaeuser bought out Roach Timber Company in 1949, and lengthened the railroad line by also using the mine tailings.

    In 1966, Weyerhaeuser abandoned the railroad. The grade became Red Rock Road, named for the color of the main tailings.

    In 1990 Weyerhaeuser sold their operation to Swanson Superior Forest Products.

    What was discovered is that the mine tailings used for the roadbed, now Red Rock Road, have high levels of arsenic in them. This arsenic is being kicked up into the air as dust. The road passes close to several homes, and runs near many more.

    The Oregon Department of Environmental Quality (DEQ) has determined this is a health risk. The only effective way to address the problem is to cap the road with uncontaminated gravel and in many areas pave it.

    The kicker is Weyerhaeuser is on the hook for some of these costs.

    This is a typical case, and I'll bet dollars to donuts that if a commercial entity exists that has direct or even indirect ties to the contamination, they will be on the hook for cleanup costs. We've seen that time and again in Oregon when an oil company sells land that a gas station was on, and then when the new owners discover contamination, the oil company has to clean it up. The only time when this has broken down is when there is no entity in existence, or they have no money. Right now there is an abandoned barge that has broken up in the Columbia River here, and it's costing millions to clean up the mess. The owner can't afford any costs. He has only chump change. You can bet that the lawyers are looking over any and all entities connected with this barge to see if anyone can be held financially responsible for it.

    Good luck. I think your club will need it.
     
  12. Guy

    Guy Member

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    I was involved in a lead issue with a city gov. Lead Miner is 100% right.....and you'll not see the Fed EPA involved in the issue....they know what lead does not do. It's the local govs that are taking advantage of the "lead issue". It's all bs.

    I don't know how this applies to your situation, but remember this....you can't fight City Hall....they have time, money, and law on their side......they will wait you out, run you 'round and 'round, make your attorney jump through so many hoops (expensive), and pretend to be your helpful friend......and you still can't win.

    If I had it to do over, instead of spending big money on an attorney.....I'd spend it on a public relations firm......somebody that will get your story out there....create public support. Get your issues in the paper, and on the local news. You need citizens making calls, showing up a City Council meetings. You need more ammo than a few old trapshooters can give. Again, I don't know if this info will help. Maybe just give you another way to look at things.
     
  13. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    I added this: When you "reclaim lead" you are actually grinding the lead up and creating more particulate matter which penetrates through the surface soil


    Also soil and groundwater studies need to be made. When you sample in front of the firing line you might be shocked-the contamination by heavy metals there will be great.

    This is all an argument to not move your club once you are located their because you can never lose your liability totally.

    One final thought- If you do want to mitigate damage you need to truck that soil that is sifted during the "lead reclaiming" to a harzoudous land fill. Goes right from the sifter to a truck that takes it to the landfill-- never touches the ground again

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene

    PS-- whoever said the Federal govt wont be involved in this must be thinking of disney land. They surely may be involved in this.
     
  14. Guy

    Guy Member

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    Gene: The Feds have not gotten involved in this issue......leadminer is right. You need to read his post again. Soil and groundwater surveys have shown that lead goes only 12" deep.....there is more contamination in the runoff from every highway in the country.

    "you can never lose your liability totally." Says you?

    "They surely may be involved in this." Is that like being alittle pregnant?
     
  15. Twinbirds

    Twinbirds TS Member

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    wow, scary I guess my backyard trap needs to go, before the lead fallout becomes an issue?
     
  16. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    WGH- believe what you will but dont try taking it to the bank. Courts are filled with people like WGH.

    I think you will reap a larger benefit from believing in the tooth fairy than believing you wont be held liable for lead contamination.

    The State is the last resort to pay for the cleanup and they will spend whatever it takes to insure they dont pay.

    WGH -- Let me give you one little homework assignment WGH- I know you are an expert but just do this for me. Research what is the allowable lead level in soil for housing areas in your location. Then research what the lead level is on this property in question from 0-12 inches. Then research what the lead level on this property is from 12-36 inches. Finally research what the lead level is at 84 inches. For the moment we wont give you a homework assignment on runoff.

    Come back with those 4 numbers and I will help you figure out the cost of cleanup.

    We will wait for your report

    Remember every time you reclaim lead or turn the soil you are creating more fine particles. It is those that are going to get you into trouble.

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene
     
  17. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    Leaches and laywers will go after anything that has blood in it and will keep sucking blood until the source dries up.

    Evidently your club has enough money or assets to get someone's intrest. Laywer up and fight it and the opposition may give up once they realize your lawyer has already bled you dry.
     
  18. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    Disband the club, distribute the assets, and start up under a new name.

    At least that's how the big boys would do it.

    I wonder who is responsible for the lead that occurs naturally in the ground in many states, in parcels that have not been mined?

    HM
     
  19. Pull & Mark

    Pull & Mark Well-Known Member

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    Yes, bottom line is that while lawyers are a lower life form so to speak, they only follow the money trail. They may try to go after the club if they believe they can get money from the club or the clubs insurance company at the time the club was running. If they can't collect from one of these two avenues they will try the land owner and his/her person holdings and insurance at the time as well. Even lawyers can't get blood out of a stone. If your club has a lawyer for a member, I'd have him look into the moneys that someone might be able to try to tap into and go from there. Good Luck and Break-em all. Jeff
     
  20. g7777777

    g7777777 TS Supporters TS Supporters

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    HM is on the right track to a degree- but if you were going to do that you should have done it before you moved

    And you shouldnt really move-

    There is more than a new name that is going to be required. It really needs to be different people with different money

    That doesnt mean that the original people cant be gotten to- maybe they can. Lots of factors.

    Or you can listen to someone like WGH and keep your head in the sand.

    It seems you arent happy with your current attorney. Maybe that is because he/she is giving you feedback that you dont want? If you really think the attorney is wrong then get a different attorney but remember you are starting from ground zero with the new person and will pay accordingly.

    Also remember that just because you dont like the attorneys advice doesnt mean they are wrong. If the attorney is giving you some specific advice that is an indication of someone you want on your side as opposed to someone that does your bidding and continues to research( at your expense).

    Regards from Iowa

    Gene

    PS the gold standard (currently) is that you need to get a release from the DNR of your state
     
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