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CLAYS vs. INTL Clays

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by OldGoat, Jul 4, 2009.

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  1. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    I've been loading 1 1/8 loads per the Hodgdon manual (and weighing charges): Rem STS hulls; WAA12 white wads; Win 209 primers; 19.6 gr. Clays International. Book says PSI is ~10,100. If I switch to CLAYS (which I use for 1 oz. loads) so I only have to stock one type of powder for both 1 1/8 and 1 oz. loads, the book says 18.4 grs. of Clays, but the PSI goes to 11,300.
    Is there any practical difference? I can save using powder (19.6 - 18.4 gr. = 1.2 grs. per shell - no big deal) but increase pressure by almost 12%. Sounds like a "no brainer" to just use one powder and less of it for 1 1/8 loads...what am missing? Best Regards, Ed
     
  2. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    OldGoat:

    They are both very good powders. Regular Clays is ideal for one ouncers and ok for 1 1/8 oz. loads. What you may or may not be missing (opinions vary) is felt recoil. International Clays is a slower burning powder and best for handicap loads. Many think it results in less felt recoil.

    I'll let someone else answer a question you didn't ask about whether the higher chamber pressure (13+k psi) for regular Clays has anything to do with felt recoil.


    sissy : )
     
  3. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    For a comparison Clays and Red Dot are alike and Clays International and Green Dot perform similarly. I use a recipe of 17.4 of Clays in AA or STS hull, AA primer, 1 oz #8 shot in Spolar wad [Green Duster] = 1,215 ft./sec.. Good from the 16 to the 23 yard line. Past that, I prefer International = 20.0 grains, same hull, AA primer, 1 1/8 oz. of 7.5 shot in a Spolar [Blue Duster] wad = 1,220 ft./sec. The burn rate of the two powders are significantly different to use them for different purposes. Of course, you have to find Hogdon Powder and any primers. I just switched back to Red Dot [after 15 years] and like it. If you handed me two shells with Red Dot and Clays I couldn't tell the difference.
    Fred
     
  4. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Tinman, Recoil Sissy, & Fred. Your comments are appreciated...and they bring me back to reality - Clays is fast burning and is best suited to 1 oz. loads which I use for 16 to mid yardage. International has served me well - loads do not seem to recoil any more than the 1 oz. and work well for handicap. Again, your comments help me get back in focus. Best Regards, Ed
     
  5. stingray44130

    stingray44130 Member

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    can any body answer this I switched to clays from international because of excessive smoke from international always blowing out barrel
     
  6. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    You didn't ask a question. HMB
     
  7. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    I have not noticed more "barrel smoke" when using Clays Intl...heading out to shoot this afternoon - will look to see if it is noticeable. Ed
     
  8. Pull Bang

    Pull Bang Member

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    Just my opinion:

    When selecting powder for 1oz or 11/8oz I first determine what velocity I want. (1145fps for a 23/4 dram load or 1200fps for a 3 dram load). THAN: I look for a powder with the LEAST amount of pressure for that velocity.

    Velocity greater than 1200fps, the same principal applies.


    There are other issues to consider: How clean a powder burns, how well it meters and the cost. These are all personal issues that a shooter must sort out.

    The reason I feel pressure is important is because of perceived felt recoil. Generally lower pressure gives less felt recoil.


    Frank
     
  9. OldGoat

    OldGoat Well-Known Member

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    Checked the "smoke" factor from Clays Intl. this afternoon. Yes, it seemed that there was evidence of some (not a lot) of smoke after firing Clays Intl. 1 1/8 oz. loads...never noticed it before. I'm back to the advice from several here...Clays seems to provide good pressure/velocity for 7/8 and 1 oz. loads; Clays Intl. seems to work better for 1 1/8 loads. Bottom Line: "If it ain't broke, don't try to fix it" Concentrate on breaking targets and quit fiddling with details. Best Regards, Ed
     
  10. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    Also, not mentioned is that certain shells and loads operate/pattern better in certain guns. You need to pattern the load in your gun to verify it works well. All the psi's, smoke, costs, make no difference if the targets do not break uniformly. Fred
     
  11. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    I ran out of Clays a couple of months ago but my International Clays supply is good so I started using International for everything including 7/8 oz loads. No problems. I will buy more Clays when it becomes available but in the mean time International is doing just fine for me.
     
  12. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    The last two posters beat me to it. I was going to ask what is wrong with using International Clays for everything. I've used it as well as Green Dot for mild one-counce and handicap loads and currently do so with PB. In fact, I only change the amount of powder and shot when I go from one load to the other - just like Remington in their one-ounce and Nitro 27 shells, I use their TGT-12S wad in both loads.

    Ed
     
  13. fssberson

    fssberson Active Member

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    I switched over to Red Dot to replace the Clays. I hate to waste International for 1 oz loads at 16 yards... hard to find ANY Hogdon powder these days. Even harder to find primers. Fred
     
  14. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    There IS something wrong with loading to near max pressures, like 11,000 PSI+. It stresses your gun more and over time and it could make a big difference in it's longevity. You are also at the limits of recommended pressures and it wouldn't take very much to push you over the line. Add a higher ambient temperature, leave your shells in the HOT car in the sunlight, and add a deeper than normal crimp, stack up a few variables to the high side, and you could be well over the line. The better idea is to keep pressures well under 10,000 which would leave a little headroom for error. It's a bit safer that way.

    Here are a few urls for some good reading. There is some mention of repetirive stresses being a major factor in some catastrophic firearms failures.

    http://www.hpwhite.com/uploads/file/100-00.pdf

    http://www.hpwhite.com/uploads/file/101-00.pdf

    http://www.hpwhite.com/uploads/file/103-00.pdf
     
  15. AveragEd

    AveragEd Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I do, with 21.5 grains of PB and a Federal 209A. They chronograph right at 1,200fps on average.

    If you think a particular combination of components might work, call or email the powder and/or wad manufacturers involved. You'd be surprised at the recipes they have tried that work but don't get published. They can also tell you what didn't work for them and if something they haven't tried should work for you. My one-ounce load uses a lighter powder charge than you will see published anywhere for PB powder, but IMR gave it a green light several years ago. It chronos at 1,150fps, breaks targets very well and is easy on my arthritic shoulder and neck.

    Not too long ago, I submitted a monthly column to Shotgun Sports Magazine that contained a list of recipes I had tried with different wads to see if the wads made any difference in the loads' muzzle velocities (they did). When the editorial staff couldn't find the recipes in any published loading data, they
    advised me that they were hesitant to publish the article. I suggested they contact IMR and the three wad manufacturers involved and the article was printed as written.

    Ed
     
  16. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    EE

    I never mentioned the pressure of factory shells and was referring to reloads. The statement was intended for "DATA" showing 11,000 PSI. Add the normal variations encountered while reloading and you could easily stack up over 11,000. Factory shells are a different animal and should be safe enough to shoot under normal conditions. Not ALL factory loads will be at 11,000 PSI, and they were made under controlled conditions and tested for pressure. You don't have those same conditions and testing facilities, as a casual reloader, so why push the envelope. When is the last time you pulled a sample and tested them for pressure? I also stand with my statement regarding accumulated stress. Shooting loads that are 2,000 or 3,000 PSI lower than the max should add a little life to your firearm. So, if shooting reloads that produce less pressure than factory and other loads, wouldn't that be an advantage?

    Read my post again and you'll see the references I made to loading conditions, variables, etc. Anybody that thinks their reloads are giving the EXACT pressures listed in the data would probably be wrong. Even the people that compiled the original data might not be able to produce the same results a second time, even with the exact same components. Can you actually expect to produce the exact same shell with the exact same results that the powder company did? The depth of the crimp can increase pressures by over 3000 PSI alone, as shown in some independent testing. That's just ONE variable. Add the differences in Powder Lot variations, primers, wads, hulls, etc. I see no reason to push the envelope, so I will start with loads shown to produce pressures well under the maximums. That leaves a little room for error, as I have stated before.
     
  17. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Show me the data that shows that all factory trap loads are 11,000 PSI or greater. I've never seen it. Now how do you know that the "pressure" variation in your reloads is less than factory? Maybe the "Velocity" variations, but what are the "pressure" numbers? Anyone that knows about metals and fatigue will tell you that the less stress applied, the less fatigue there is, all other things equal. If you shoot an auto, there can be less wear and tear with lower pressures and gas volumes. Sort of like running a race car engine at 5500 RPM VS redline at 9000. Which will last longer?

    The argument here is not factory loads, but reloads, where the person doing the reloading can have more control over the loads he shoots. When you go into WalMart and buy a 4 pack of Federal Promotional loads, you don't have much control over the pressures they produce. You DO have control over the loads you produce and the data you use to make them. You have the choice to be stupid and careless or you can go to the conservative side and use caution and common sense.
     
  18. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    Somehow I must have missed any article that Tom published with any extensive pressure testing of common target loads. It isn't that relevant for me, since I shoot mostly reloads and have more control over what I shoot than a non-reloading shooter. I load conservatively in Handgun and Rifle loads as well. If I need more power, I just get a bigger gun.
     
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