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Claydot info needed

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by 22hornet, Nov 26, 2007.

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  1. 22hornet

    22hornet Well-Known Member

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    I'm trying to reduce shooting costs any way I can,(my wife and I both shoot) and I am thinking about using Alliant Claydot as a replacement for Hodgdon Clays. Is Claydot a direct replacement? Is it as clean as Clays? I'd appreciate any feedback. Thanks in advance.....
    Dave Weaverling
     
  2. flybyknight

    flybyknight Member

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    Dave, Claydot is supposed to be a direct replacement for Clays. That said, I find I generally use 1 size larger bushing in my MEC. which gives 0.1 to 0.2 grains more powder. It is almost as clean as Clays. Right now, I buy whichever one is available since there is only a dollar or two difference in the cost where I live. I like them both. BobK
     
  3. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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    Dear Dave

    The cheapest powder around is Rex I. This is really good powder. I prefer it over other powders regadless of cost. Bulky and easy to ignite, good in cold weather, fast enough to allow frugal powder charges. What's not to love?
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Dave- Alliant states that Clay Dot is a direct replacement for the imported Clays powder. It clearly is as clean, perhaps cleaner burning than Clays.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

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    I'm probably on my 5th keg of Claydot and it is a direct replacement for Clays.

    I can go from one to the other without adjusting my adjustable charge bar, that's how close it is.

    Is it as clean as Clay's?

    Don't really know, nor care, as it is about $20.00 a keg cheaper than Clay's and it shoots the same as far as I'm concerned.

    Go for it!

    Hauxfan!
     
  6. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    I'm having a series of pressure/velocity tests done at present to generate data on the component combinations I use. The first test using a formula from the Hodgdon manual shows a statistically significant increase in both pressure and velocity by only substituting Clay Dot for Clays.

    There are probably other factors that could contribute to the differences and this is the only test that will directly and exclusively compare Clays with Clay Dot. The other tests will generate data on the Clay Dot powder/Rio primer combination using formulas that have been adjusted according to the instructions of both Alliant and Rio.

    Morgan
     
  7. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Capt. unless you perform that test on several different lots each, you will not learn anything useful. Geez, there is enough variation between some lots of Red Dot to surprise you. The last batch I got was bulky and weak. I had to move up two bushings to accommodate the bulk and add about .5 grains to get the velocity back up.
     
  8. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Let's just say that if the lots of Clay Dot routinely vary from the Clays data as much as this one did, Clay Dot formulation/testing needs to be addressed. The increase in pressure was significant.

    Morgan
     
  9. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Alliant's tolerances for powder to be released for sale to reloaders are +/-10fps, +/-0.5 grains, and +/-600psi vis a vis the reference lot. Hodgdon's are similar, although I no longer remember the exact numbers.

    You should be aware these are averages across the entire string of shots. Individual shots vary more widely.

    Capt., please list the data you got from your first test.
     
  10. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    The original data on which this load is based can be found on page 58 of the 2006 Hodgdon Reloading Manual. The components for that load include:


    -- once-fired Remington "Gun Club" hulls<br>
    -- Winchester W-209 primer<br>
    -- OEM Remington "Figure 8" wad<br>
    -- Clays powder -- 18.6 grains<br>
    -- 1 1/8 oz (499.5 grains) shot


    According to the Hodgdon tables, this formula should produce a velocity of 1200 fps and a pressure of 11000 psi.

    The data for the tested load involved (1) a substitution of Alliant's "Clay Dot" powder in place of Hodgdon's "Clays" and (2) a reduction in the weight of the powder charge from the original 18.6 grn. to 18.3 grn. The intent was to produce a load with a velocity of approx. 1185 - 1200 fps. to use as a 21-yard handicap load. So the load as tested used the following components:


    -- once-fired Remington "Gun Club" hulls<br>
    -- Winchester W-209 primer<br>
    -- OEM Remington "Figure 8" wad<br>
    -- Clay Dot powder -- 18.3 grn. (Batch #Jun 2 '07 S2 Lot 015)<br>
    -- 1 1/8 oz (499.5 grains ± .5 grains) Eagle #8 shot


    The weights of the powder charge and the shot load used for the test shells were obtained by disassembling 15 already-loaded production shells selected from a box of 25 that had been loaded that same day and averaging the weights. The powder for these sample shells was from the same production batch used to load the test shells. The powder weights went from 18.1 grn to 18.4 grn around a target weight of 18.3 grn and averaged 18.3 grn. The shot weights varied from 495.2 grn to 506.1 grn and averaged 499.5 grn.

    The shells were tested in 2 batches: a "C" ("control") batch using precisely weighed components and a "P" ("production") batch that were selected from the 10 shells that remained from the box that produced the 15 samples.

    This is the results table for the control ("C") shells:
    <center>[​IMG]</img></center>

    This is the results table for the production ("P") shells:
    <center>[​IMG]</img></center>


    Morgan
     
  11. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    It appears that there might be some differences between these two powders. I have not seen any published data from Alliant that includes pressure information. When told that Clays data will work for Clay Dot, by Alliant, I was quite sceptical, since they did not provide any pressure data to confirm that statement. I'm sure they have tested the powder extensively, but my thought is that just normal variables could put you over the top. I would use lower pressure loads and consider sending some out for pressure and velocity testing if I were intending on using a lot of any particular load.

    Looking at Cap't Morgan's data, I think I wouldn't be using any of those loads anytime soon. It would be interesting to see what the original Clays would do in the same load.

    Clay Dot is a clean powder. Is it as clean as Clays? How would you measure that? I shoot a gas pipe and noticed that Clays can accumulate just as quickly as other "dirty" powders do. It's probably best to stick with the loads that Alliant has published, which is a severely limited list. If I were worried about cost, I'd be using Promo, which I do use quite a bit. Clay Dot is a decent powder, but severely handicapped by the lack of reliable data. That is the manufacturer's fault. It's ridiculous to tell someone to use data for another powder and manufacturer and "assume" it will be the same. It may be close, but probably different enough to get someone in trouble. I also think that some of Hodgdon's data for Clays might be a bit outdated and in need of verification or updating.
     
  12. Capt. Morgan

    Capt. Morgan TS Member

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    Since handicap shooting won't be an issue until spring, I'm going to drop the powder charge back to 17.8 grns and retest the load in a month or 2.

    Morgan
     
  13. zzt

    zzt Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the data Capt. I look forward to your side-by-side comparison.
     
  14. 22hornet

    22hornet Well-Known Member

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    Thank you, everyone, for your replies. A special thanks to Capt. Morgan. I'm concerned about the shortage of loading data for Clay Dot, too. I'm using 1 oz loads, or even 7/8 these days, and as soon as I use the last of my Win 209 primers, I'm going to give Fiocchi's a try. I'll load a little light with Clay Dot and see how things work. I'll chrono the loads and let everyone know how they work out. By the way, I'm not worried so much about the clean burning thing for myself, but my wife shoots autoloaders, and well, you know, cleaning can be a pain, especially that 391....
     
  15. omahasportingsupply

    omahasportingsupply TS Member

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    bump for good info. Does this qualify as lurking?
     
  16. Quack Shot

    Quack Shot Active Member

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    OmahaSportingSupply

    Not unless you post, which you did, so you are disqualified as a "Lurker" :)
     
  17. XT Bill

    XT Bill TS Member

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    I just purchased 8 lbs. of Clays for $88.00.(Yes, it was on sale) Claydot was $86.50.

    I was using Alliant powder before, and just plain wanted more published loads than they provide !
     
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