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Clay Targets

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by Fast Oil, May 29, 2007.

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  1. Fast Oil

    Fast Oil TS Member

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    Yes
     
  2. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    All part of a vast left wing conspiracy.....
     
  3. Baber

    Baber TS Member

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    The shortage is because we don't have sufficient refinery capacity in the US. The problem does not exist outside the US. You can currently purchase targets from europe and have them shipped in for a price equal or below any of the US Suppliers. Pitch is a waste product from the refining process. As the refiners attempt to make more gas from a barrel of oil there is less pitch. If we had more refineries there would be more gas and the price would go down and there would be more pitch for targets etc... etc...

    BIOS are horrible.... they kill the grass. We stopped using them 2 years ago and still the club looks like a white beach....

    TB
     
  4. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

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    Without promotion of our sport it wont make much difference anyway.
     
  5. cdconley

    cdconley TS Member

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    BIO my butt. As I understand it Bio targets contain acid that helps dissolve the target over time. The acid then saturates the ground, leaving it unable to sustain plant (including weed) life. I think grass growing up through pitch covered fields, is much better then the baron waist that “bio targets” leave behind. I wonder what the greenies are going to say when the acid is washed into the streams, rivers and lakes and all the fish, plants and animals die as a result?
     
  6. famill00

    famill00 TS Member

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    I think that if the acid thing is true I will lay some bio targets around every tree in the yard so I dont have to weekeat around the trees!! Great idea!!!

    Forrest
     
  7. ricks1

    ricks1 TS Member

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    correct me if i am wrong but isnt the bio target made out of fly ash that comes from the power plants rick
     
  8. blizzard

    blizzard Active Member

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    Isn't flyash mainly what flowfill is made from?
     
  9. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    Can anyone get a MSDS sheet on Bio targets, we have not been able to, so all the "cures" for what is killing our grass is just speculation! Our next targets will be Lawry Pitch.....
     
  10. Frank C

    Frank C Well-Known Member

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    From the WF website...

    Warning: White Flyer © targets are biodegradable. Over time the byproducts of the degradation can affect soil PH and vegetation growth. In high volume target areas, adverse soil impact can be avoided by raking up target residue on a monthly basis or by adding agricultural limestone to the soil if the PH decreases abnormally. Soil PH in high volume target areas should be checked bi-annually.

    so now we have to buy Lime and try and spread it on quite uneven ground....great, Pitch looking better and better,,,,
     
  11. cdconley

    cdconley TS Member

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    Ok for all you rocket scientist out there. (BTW I’m not a chemist, but I’m not totally uneducated) PH is a measurement of the acidity most commonly used for water and soil. Neutral is 7, lower numbers indicate more acid higher numbers indicate more bases. Adding acid lowers the PH, adding base (lime) raises the number. Does anyone have a swimming pool? The fact that White Flyer is telling you that the PH may go down is all the indication that the acid level in the soil is increasing. The only way you can decrease the PH is to add some type of acid, period. The thing that most clubs that use these “bio” targets need to worry about, is the law suit that comes when runoff from your fields washes a high acid content soil into someone’s property and they get the same “negative effects” that White Flyer warned you about. Remember pollution is excluded from your GL policy. So when your neighbors corn field yields a low crop and he has his soil tested and finds his PH level is at 4 and the source is runoff from your trap field, SEE YA! The good news is that most of the loss will fall to the manufacturers products liability. But you will still have to fight both sides of the coin, the one coming from the injured party and the one coming from White Flyer claiming that they disclosed the hazards and solutions to the user, and they did not handle the product correctly. Wow another asbestos an injury lawyers cash cow!
     
  12. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Get over it and get used to 'em because you'll probably be shooting a lot of BIOS in the future!!
     
  13. cdconley

    cdconley TS Member

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    oleolliedawg



    Your right, shot them at Lemon Grove Gun Club, they broke. But I still say that calling them "bio" is an over statement that White Flyer will pay for one day.
     
  14. Lither

    Lither TS Member

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    Talk about making mountains out of molehils, jeez. I actually am a soil chemist by trade, and I can tell you for certain the the acidity from bios will not be that big a problem to deal with. in most of the country, ( midwest, south and east) the problem can easily be corrected with ag lime, which is in plentifull supply, and in the west, as a rule we need acidity in the soil, where we farm the pH is upwards 8.

    Also keep in mind an acre foot of soil is 4 million pounds. takes a lot of targets to change the chemistry of that much soil, and if you actually do, it is easily corrected. We have bigger problems to deal with, i.e gun controll will be the end of our sport long before bio targets will be.

    Len
     
  15. cdconley

    cdconley TS Member

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    Frank C,

    Can you post the pictures for us.

    Len,

    Being in agribusiness I’m sure that you’ve heard of the huge liability problem associated with “chemical drift”. It’s such a big issue that most Farm Insures limit or exclude any coverage for this liability loss. Out west, see what happens when a cotton farmer gets heavy doses of defoliant on his neighbors produce crop. How about the recent e-coli outbreak in Salinas? Apparently it was from “runoff” from a nearby feed yard. If White Flyer knows that these targets effect the soil enough to effect foliage growth, surely any runoff to streams, irrigation systems, farm fields, livestock areas, lakes, ponds or even the water table can be effected as well. I personally doubt that these targets have been designated as Bio neutral, as the name would have us believe, by anyone or any agency other then White Flyer. Maybe White Flyer in an effort to lessen future liability should name these targets “other then pitch targets” or "self dessolving targets" instead of “bio targets” so as not to mislead users.
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Order your targets for summer now and take delivery soon. The Ashland plant making pitch will be closed for 34 days this year instead of the usual 25 or so and pitch may become scarce.

    Neil
     
  17. bigclown

    bigclown TS Member

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    It is Bush's fault. Anonymous
     
  18. Lither

    Lither TS Member

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    Frank c,

    I really don't know what the composition of bio targets is, they may in fact contain some kind of compound that has a sterilizing effect on the soil, however, this has nothing to do with soil acidity,as was the afformentioned cause of the sterility of which I was responding to. There are literally thousands of custom applicsators to apply lime, ask around, I'm sure one of them is a trapshooter and would be willing to help out.

    I would suggest going to your local agribuissness fertilizer and chemical supply company and have them pull a soil sample from under the piles of targets and surrounding areas lacking vegitation. this will let you know if there is a nutrient issue, or a toxicological problem.

    as for liability, I am not an attorney, and I don't know if a club could be held liable for the issue, provided they used the targets in good faith, within the limits set by the manufature, white flyer would be liable if they were aware of the problem and still produced the product without full disclaimer of the possibilities for environmental impact. if that wasn't the case, every farmer in america would be liable for DDT use even thought hey had no awareness of the situation at the time, and every building contractor who ever installed asbestos would be sued for every case of cancer thereafter.


    Len
     
  19. cdconley

    cdconley TS Member

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    Len,

    Where have you been? Every Farmer is liable for bodily injury and property damage that is caused by chemicals that they use. Even chemicals that are still expectable to be used today.

    As for building contractors that built structures using asbestos, again I have to ask where have you been. Do you really believe that lawsuits concerning asbestos have been limited to the manufacturer? Think again. But let me give you a clue, try hard not to buy a building that has asbestos in it. Because if you do and a loss comes up concerning that building the list of those listed in the suit will include, the manufacturer, the builder, possibly the architect or engineer, the sub-contractor that installed it, you the building owner and John and Jane Doe just in case they miss someone. Oh but don’t worry to much as the current building owner you might be off the hook for a judgment if your lawyer can convince everyone that you had no knowledge and concealed no information from the injured party and of course the plaintiffs can’t show that a reasonable and prudent property owner would not have known about and disclosed the dangers. But you’ll still have a mountain of legal bills even if you’re found to have zero liability. Isn’t our legal system grand? But the most important thing to remember is that most gun clubs have GL policies that exclude pollution. So heaven for bid, a club is listed along with White Flyer and John and Jane in a suit involving these targets, they’ll have no insurance company paying that multi thousand dollar legal bill that hopefully will get them off the hook for damages. The bad news is there is about zero chance of recovering those expenses if they’re found not liable. So keep using targets that the manufacturer has disclosed have a negative effect on the soil. Or take all reasonable actions to assure that a loss to someone else does not happen. That would include the instructions White Flyer has lied out including, removing targets on a regular basis, testing the soil on a regular basis and adding base to the soil as needed to keep an expectable PH level.
     
  20. ANTRIM UDF

    ANTRIM UDF TS Member

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    Bios are horrible, they don`t seem to smoke, break into 3-4 pieces, I smoke even Lawry`s so it is not me or my shells. I really think the whole sport is in danger, gun control, prices, lead contamination, cost of components, us old farts getting even more older....It has been a good ride for over 100 years, glad I was part of it. Shoot as much as possible. I can still remember the sports car race from "On The Beach", drive like there is no tomorrow......
     
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