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Classification ?

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by chatbrat, May 6, 2008.

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  1. chatbrat

    chatbrat TS Member

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    in my last 3 shoots I shot above my current class average, is this enough to change my class in the next shoot or the state shoot I intend to go to---my average is still below the next class---Phil
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Heck, Jerry, I don't know what you are complaining about. I kept an eye on that guy after that and sure enough, he broke a second 96 just four years later!

    And Phil, while classifiers have wide latitude, they generally go by average even if there are a couple of higher-than- average (as long as they are not too high whatever that means) recent scores.

    Neil
     
  3. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    So explain this. A guy is a solid, mid-average A shooter and has been for several years. He shoots a couple thousand targets year and posts the occasional 100 straight. The ATA has set up the classification system so that this guy, like all other members, can compete against other shooters of similar skill based upon their demonstrated ability to shoot within the average parameters which the ATA has set for the various singles classes.

    Theoretically, because he is in that class, he should have a somewhat equal chance to actually win his class on the day he shoots above his average. That is the way a classification system is supposed to work.

    So Mr. A shooter goes to a big shoot does exactly what he is supposed to do, and is expected to do, by the ATA classification system, he shoots above his average and wins his class. After all, that is why he is in that class, so that he will have a chance to win.

    However, in addition to his win he gets bumped up into the next class which over the years he has repeatedly demonstrated his inability to compete in because he has never shot a high enough average to be moved into AA. He is now in a class where he does not have a chance to win and theoretically can't really be expected to win based upon his long-established average. He, in fact, is now truly misclassified.

    What kind of nonsense is this?
     
  4. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    One or two scores above a shooters average should not be justification for bumping him up. A win at a multi-day shoot often is adequate to get moved forward a class. There is some judgment involved with classifications. It is often difficult to be fair to the individual shooter and also be fair to the other shooters he is shooting against. I have classified a lot of shoots. I have made a few mistakes. When a mistake is pointed out to me, I do everything possible to correct the mistake. I have absolutely no problem with anyone challenging a classification I have made. I always suggest that they get classified by another at the desk, and most of them end up with the same classification.

    Pat Ireland
     
  5. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Pat,

    What I am referring to is the automatic advancement.

    BTW, about half his scores would be above his average, not one or two. :)
     
  6. jimbotrap

    jimbotrap TS Member

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    It seem it is a problem for most EC & BoD members. They seem to think if a person shoots a high score once he/she is capable of doing it over so result is to classify the person at the higher classification. We currently have a EC member who is prone to such classifing. Or if a person shoots a few good scores to punch him/her.

    In my personal opinion it is one of the ills of this sport. Try like h--- to penalize the little guy so he/she can compete with the better shooters. But alas usually to no avail for that shooter. So the shooter leaves discusted, not to return. But who am I to complain. - Jim
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    JBrooks you have given us a case scenario that you seem to believe is correct.

    "However, in addition to his win he gets bumped up into the next class which over the years he has repeatedly demonstrated his inability to compete in because he has never shot a high enough average to be moved into AA. He is now in a class where he does not have a chance to win and theoretically can't really be expected to win based upon his long-established average. He, in fact, is now truly misclassified."

    First of all there is not enough information given to understand why the classifier bumped him into the next class. If in the hypothetical the shooter in question has 1000 targets on his card and has a 96 average and goes out and shoots a 100 straight his average would not move up far enough to put him in the next class. So why was he "bumped"??? If I were that shooter(and it concerned me enough)I would insist on an explanation of the reclassification and a request to reconsider. What I don't understand is how they mark the card to make the bump hold up at the next shoot that has a different classifier unless the score put his average in the next class. How is he classed at the next shoot and why.

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. Deputy Dog

    Deputy Dog TS Member

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    The advance to another class is a shoot management decision, incorporated into the shoot program, and does not have anything to do with classification at the next shoot.(For Bob Lawless) Known ability can be used by classification personell to assist them in cases where they are not familar with that specific shooter and there are exceptional scores on their average card. Jim, I don't know who you are talking about since the EC has nothing to do with classifying people. It is done by the Central Handicap Committee at the Grand and all satelite grands. When you go to local shoots, classification is usually done by club members of the state delegate if they are available. Hope this sheds some light on the subject.
    Tommy
     
  9. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Bob, what I am referring to is the practice in virtually all large shoots where a shooter automatically advances in class for a class win or tie. By example, our A shooter may win a 100 target singles event on Tuesday and then be automatically advanced to AA for the next two, 200 target events.

    He realistically has little chance of winning either of the next two singles events because, in reality, he is an A shooter who is now misclassified in AA because he did what he could reasonably be expected to do which was to win an A event.
     
  10. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    JBrooks it would have been easier if you had said that in the beginning!!!!!!!!
    don't you think.

    This usually comes under the clubs or State associations rules not the ATA's although they can also modify the rule for major shoots



    Bob Lawless
     
  11. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    Bob,

    I think you will find it any every Satellite Grand Program and the Grand program. My guess is the states got this idea from the ATA. After all, this concept must have required some high level logic.
     
  12. BIGDON

    BIGDON Well-Known Member

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    How about the shooters left in his class, don't they deserve to have the winner(him) moved up a class so that they have a better chance of a win. A good case of damned if you do and damned if you don't. It happen to me this weekend, a bump for a win, it's in the rules, accept it, move on and don't whine about it. Yes I lost but I shot a 98 which was a AA score so the bump must of been right.

    Don
     
  13. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    JBrooks it says in the rule book "If Shoot Management desires to use different classification it may do so by printing the modified classification in the program of the shoot." Section V Paragraph C subparagraph 4 page 21 of on line rule book at ATA website

    That sure covers a lot of territory if you think about it. I believe that these rules are prompted by all the complaining about sandbagging.

    Bob Lawless
     
  14. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    JBrooks, it's not in the SW Grand program. It's not an ATA rule; satellite Grands can do it any way they want. While it is done Grand week, it is not done preliminary week at the Grand.

    Other than that, you may be right about something . . .

    Neil
     
  15. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    The "high level logic" Neil? :)

    It doesn't make it any fairer for the remaining participants because, by definition, if they are in that class, they theoretically have the same opportunity to shoot above their average and win the next day just as the previous winner theoretically has the opportunity to shoot below his average the following day.

    And Don, if you are shooting 98+s, maybe they should have put you in AA on known ability when you got there?
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    One last thought on this complaint for me is no one wants to shoot a score. They just want to get rid of the last guy that did so they don't have to worry about him.

    The only problem as I see it is the ripple affect that is being caused by this is it doesn't effect the top class. It only affects the classes that have somewhere to send these shooters. Instead of letting them progress upward the way the class system is designed to. That is fine I will not let it ruin my fun as I believe that there is more to enjoy than just the winning. It doesn't matter what class I am in.

    In your original post you said "However, in addition to his win he gets bumped up into the next class which over the years he has repeatedly demonstrated his inability to compete in because he has never shot a high enough average to be moved into AA. He is now in a class where he does not have a chance to win and theoretically can't really be expected to win based upon his long-established average. He, in fact, is now truly misclassified." reading this you would almost think that you believe that the bump is permanent. It isn't it is just for the remainder of that Shoot. It a would seem that you or the shooter in question is not satisfied with one win per tournament you/he would much rather stay in that class and keep on winning!!!!!!!!!!!

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. Jim Porter

    Jim Porter Well-Known Member

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    What is the big deal? If you go to a shoot where there are a couple hundred people someone in "C" class may well shoot a 100 straight. Everyone yells sandbag but in truth everybody has a good day once in a while--I have---WAY tyo few. All you can hope for is that this is your day!
    I have never felt that I have been unfairly classified. I just shoot targets and don't play money. I know that to win I will have to run them all to win even in B class.
    Shoot--have fun--enjoy the people--if you HAVE to win, you are in for a lot of heart ache!
     
  18. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    At two Satellite Grands where I help classify, the three year record of every winner on the first two days is closely reviewed. Some are bumped up a class, others are not. All singles/doubles winners the next four days are automatically bumped up. Also, the three year record of shooters who shoot exceptionally high scores, but are not winners, are also reviewed. Rarely, even one of these non winners is bumped up.

    A class B winner has demonstrated on at least one day, that he can compete in class A. JBrooks has given a rather sound position that it might not be fair to bump up this winner. However, it might not be fair to all of the other class B shooters not to bump up this shooter. How would shooters feel about one class B shooter winning three class B singles events in three days at a major shoot?

    Classification involves judgment and it should be based on all available information. A shooters average is not the only information used in classification. It is very common, when classifying, to find a shooter that I could justify classifying in either class B or class A. I show the shooter the information I have (overall average, average on last 1000 targets, prior wins, three year history) and ask the shooter to help me classify him properly. About 95% of the time, the shooter suggests that I classify him in the higher class.

    I can relate to the position that JBrooks is explaining. At a prior Grand I was bumped up to class AAA in singles. I was not competitive for the remainder of the shoot. But, next week at the SC State shoot, I do anticipate getting bumped up again in both singles and doubles.

    Pat Ireland
     
  19. laura!

    laura! Member

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    If a shooter shoots a 97 - 100 in caps at a large shoot they're also going to get bumped - for longer than just the shoot! At least with singles if you shot beyond your ability, by the next shoot you should be back in your old class. I think it's fair.
     
  20. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

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    I know it is just for that shoot, however it is an irrational action. Perhaps you can relate to drag racing. Simply, cars are classified by horsepower potential. If a guy wins his class and they bumped him into the next higher class everyone would say that that is rediculous because the cars in the next class have much more horsepower. If a guy can win B three days in a row, he was misclassified to begin with. So, in effect, what the automatic advancement is used for is to correct classifying mistakes?
     
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