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Classification Systems (Trap, Skeet)

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by ronbo142, Aug 18, 2009.

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  1. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    <Center>----- Disclamer -----

    I am doing some research and will reach out to those of you who have opinions. Upfront I want to ask that if you do not have something productive to say please do not participate.<BR>
    ----- Disclaimer -----
    </Center>
    The current classification system used by the ATA and NSSA to rank members by using a class system based upon averages is a limiting factor as the sport of Skeet Shooting ages. Statistically using the “Average” is a poor marker to evaluate the ability of a competitor. The average competitor realistically has little chance of winning at the majority of the competitions. Perfect scores are routinely posted by lower class shooters thus invalidating the class system.

    I am searching for ideas on how to change the culture of shooting in a “Class” and more of shooting based upon ability and competing against those of equal ability.

    Thank you<BR>
    Ron Ausman<BR>
    NSSA Illinois Director<BR>
    ATA Member
     
  2. Fast Oil

    Fast Oil TS Member

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    Lewis class?
     
  3. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    My thought process is on that path.

    I have a better chance of winning the Lewis Class event in Skeet trust me!

    Ronbo
     
  4. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Ron, your statement is very telling!

    "Perfect scores are routinely posted by lower class shooters thus invalidating the class system."

    Not that it's worth much but doesn't that statement say that the targets are too easy to hit for most everyone? I like shooting a few rounds of skeet prior to hunting birds when season arrives to tune up. My skeet averages far outrun my quail/dove/pheasant shots per bird averages but it's my only option. A few of the sporting clay stations come close too but some are ridiculous for hunting practice.

    Perceived perfection gives gives any new participant in shotgunning games a reason to take up something else to spend his extra bucks on. Good luck on finding a real solution unless the game is made more difficult to help remove that notion. Possibly then, classes and averages will have a more true meaning?

    Hap
     
  5. mrskeet410

    mrskeet410 TS Member

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    Check out the NSCA system.
     
  6. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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    Anyone else interested?
     
  7. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    If you look at the scores from the Grand there might be a clue to the solution of the problem. Compare the scores fired in the trap doubles events to the scores fired in the singles events.

    In the singles events as you go down the classes everything is 100s and 99s almost nothing lower. In the trap doubles events as you go down the class list the scores get lower. Much lower, low 90s and even some scores in the 80s.

    Why? HMB
     
  8. brigade

    brigade TS Member

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    Reduce max. payload of shot shell. Ed
     
  9. washandwear

    washandwear Member

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    Hi

    Every dog has his day! The higher your average (class) the more likely you will have to shoot off for top prize with that perfect score.

    You can make it more difficult and then it will be less likely the lower class shooter will break'em all. The best shooter in that "group" will still win.

    Average is just that scores have been above and scores below. Breaking "100" is a goal of many A thru D class shooters and most think they will have that perfect day. That is what keeps us coming back.

    The larger the shoot the more likely a dog will have his day and register a perfect score. What is wrong with that?

    Regards

    W&W
     
  10. Chipshot

    Chipshot TS Member

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    Ronbo,
    Check your PM.

    Bob Mizner
     
  11. ronbo142

    ronbo142 TS Member

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  12. skeezix

    skeezix Member

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    I think about this subject occasionally - especially if I post a stinker :-( .

    I'd like to see the skeet format changed to increase the level of difficulty a bit. More of an international format. Perhaps eliminate low 1, and high 7, then at 3 shoot high 3 and a pair, and at 5; low 5 and a pair. at 4 maybe just a pair, or, eliminate the singles at 7 and the option and add the singles back in at 4. Something along those lines anyway.

    It's always going to be a game of perfection to win.

    I don't care for the rolling 5 events for classification- but thats probably due to my ability to kick the can more frequently that I should. I understand in the old days it was more of an every 300 targets you recalculate your class based on your last ??? number of targets. that makes sense in that you don't reclass every shoot.

    Also, i realize that the NSSA has decreed that their forum is on shotgunlife, but it sucks. There is a forum "unofficial NSSA" on shotgunworld.com It isn't real active - but there is pretty good NSSA membership representation on there. You might post this inquirey there.

    FWIW, I don't believe monthly targets should be used in establishing a class- ever.

    John
     
  13. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    This has been gone over before.

    There were the days of 3 second delay, and unmounted gun. These were apparently not popular. I do not think making the game more difficult will help matters.

    There was also a punch system at one time which you may want to revisit.

    I don't mind that some phenom will be in my class, and shoot way above it. This always happens. I even had a fantastic day once. Of course I lost the shootoff.

    I have, at this time decided to forego registered skeet primarily because it seems to have gone to the rich doctors and AA shooters. Lower class shooters have to contribute to a gun champion which will never be them. for the cost of a skeet weekend I can have a prairie dog trip, which I find more rewarding.

    I traveled to AZ for 19 years, shot the Spring Grand, the Chain, and the Kachina open. Personal circumstances put a temporary halt to the proceedings, and I don't seem to want to get back on that horse.

    Our club has lost a good many registered skeet shooters because of expense, and the notion that if you don't have a K80 tube set you are somehow inferior. I know it's not the case, but the image persists.

    With the difficulties our country is going through economically, so far the best invention I have seen is the Big 50 format ATA is using.

    I suppose you could define ability by removing the lowest and highest scores from an average, but other than that, how can you tell ability without looking at the record?

    As a class shooter who never got past A, I can only say both associations need to be nicer to those who are not bloodthirsty experts. At least ATA doesn't take money from the weak to give to the strong.

    HM

    HM
     
  14. spitter

    spitter Well-Known Member TS Supporters

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    Our Club league shoots use a "lewis" system of sorts. Everyone shoots scratch and at the end, your standing is determined by the actual scores and is broken down into groups of shooters... why that would not work the day of a shoot, I can't imagine.

    However, I would still suggest that any folks supported by the trade or those who hawk a product/service be segregated from the true amateur population.

    Pros went after the money (schools, videos, product sales, distributing etc...) no one forced them to do that, the fact that thet can't support themselves soley from their enterprise is not a determining factor. If great amateurs want to qualify as a Pros, that could be considered if Pros choose to allow that.

    We can't have it both ways...

    respectfully offered,

    Jay Spitz
     
  15. skeezix

    skeezix Member

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    We've been mulling over eliminating mandatory purses, and trying to promote Lewis class or whatever to get the costs down a bit. It would proabably not reduce the real cost - as you will spend the $ on Lewis's or Oklahomas or whatever - but at least it's your choice. I'm told that the big dogs won't come if there are no mandatory purses. Ok, they rarely come to MT anyway, so I don't see that as a downside - for us. We still have pretty "reasonable" shoot fees. MT's better shoots run from $34/100 to $38/100. which is a fair bit lower than what I read happens in Texas.

    john
     
  16. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Ed, you certainly hit a lot of 10s and bullseye with that post guy!! Hap
     
  17. Bluerock1

    Bluerock1 Member

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    I have registered both and agree the skeet class system doesn't work. Hap hit it right on the head. You need to make skeet tougher. Let the cream still settle to the top but the lessor shooters should shake out into the lower classes. Trap better watch out as our singles events are moving in the same direction as skeet has.

    Bluerock1
     
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