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Classification Procedure[s] help & infor

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by WWB, Mar 19, 2010.

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  1. WWB

    WWB Member

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    For those who have classified shooters:
    How do you handle the shooter who hasn't or never fills out the percentage
    column? If it has not filled out for the last # of shoots how do you determine a percentage to allow you to determine classification & how do you do it quickly enough to not hold up the line.
    Ditto with the won/tie column.

    I have seen a club that hands you a calculator and tells you to bring it up to date---[hard on PR]or the guy goes back 4 to 5 shoots adds quickly in his head & comes up with a "close" percentage and uses that and some who just ask the guy. I have also been at clubs where the shooter fills out his own classification.

    Some of you guys that have been doing this for a bit please respond.......
    Thank you.
     
  2. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    Maybe it,s just me but keeping your average card up to date is the shooters job . No average no shoot or shoot AA-27
     
  3. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    There are any number of ways a classifier can determine your class in Singles and Doubles. Handicap is the yardage you are assigned by the ATA unless the program has penalty in it. If the shooter does not meet the penalty requirements he may be assigned additional yardage per the program. Or if a member of the CHC is present. Other wise you shoot the yardage on your card.

    Listed under Rules of Conduct for an ATA Shooter Page 8 paragraph 4

    4. The Average Card is intended to provide classification personnel
    at registered shoots with current data on a member’s shooting ability.
    Shooters not having their Average Cards up to date may be put in a higher
    class or otherwise penalized. Failure to accurately record scores,
    or the falsification of scores, can lead to disciplinary action including
    suspension from the ATA.

    "I have seen a club that hands you a calculator and tells you to bring it up to date"

    As far as I am concerned in view of the rules consider yourself fortunate if you are given the calculator. Looking at the rule they don't have to give you the opportunity to figure your average they can just put you in AA and keep the line moving.

    Bob Lawless
     
  4. ljutic231

    ljutic231 TS Member

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    AA-27 and keep the line moving. He or she will eventually get the message.
     
  5. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

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    Give him a pencil and tell him to update it at the back of the line???? Hap
     
  6. WWB

    WWB Member

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    I agree with my old Buddy Hap and the rest who offered the advice of "Just tell them to fill in it properly or move them to A or more", but the club is trying hard to build participation and support & it seems rather harsh PR wise.
    I guess look to see if 500 shot--do the math in my head--& classify, or look back if less than 500 and use last target years class??!! On some I wonder if they understand how to figure averages.
    Wish Neal or Pat I had some thought.
     
  7. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    Willie you said that "the club is trying hard to build participation and support & it seems rather harsh PR wise." As much as I understand what you are saying about the PR angle.

    If however they are allowed a walk on the fact that they aren't living up to their responsibility in the classification process. Sooner or later everyone that come to your club will say why should I fugue my average. They will do it for me if I wait until I go there.

    As I said before there are any number of ways to come up with an average. However doing it for them isn't going to build PR. In my opinion it will only encourage those that don't do what they are supposed to do. To continue to let you do it for them.

    The link above is one way to help them understand the workings of their average card. Print it out and make copies of it and hand them out at classification to those that are not making out there card. You might also remind them that making sure they are classified properly is the shooters responsibility.

    Bob Lawless
     
  8. dhip

    dhip Active Member

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    ok,,what do I do,,,joined in oct..,,no registered shoots close enough since then.,,,,

    Where eill they put me,,no average yet and registered shoots starting in about 2 weeks in my area.

    right now,,card says 20yd..

    but I have no averages yet.


    Doug h.
     
  9. Grousehunterkel

    Grousehunterkel TS Member

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    Willie-I get the oppportunity to classify quite a few shooters in a year in Pa. We have the luxury of looking at the downloaded info from the ATA which is probably 4-6 weeks behind. Most people have their cards filled out with averages computed which makes the process simple and quick. When you get a card that is not complete or in some cases blank it requires a judgement call. A few questions can determine the result. I try to "err" on the side of overclassifying someone if there is too much gray area. The shooter can always dispute that.
    It is amazing how much information comes out if you overclassify someone who knows the rules. Remember that the averages are the basis for classification. Documenting wins and ties, and known ability can also affect the result. I try to be consistent,fair but firm with all shooters. Before you go to a shoot, check the program for target requirements and make sure your card is filled out properly, and you will know where you belong.
    Sincerely,
    Glenn Kelly
     
  10. grnberetcj

    grnberetcj Active Member

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    If the "Shooter" is too lazy to properly maintain his average card, then that shooter will be placed in A Class or higher, 25 yard line minimum.

    Also thinking along those lines, if a shooter is too lazy about his/her card, then maybe they're too lazy to properly maintain their gun and too lazy to properly reload correctly, then they may be a hazard to other shooters.

    Curt
     
  11. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

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    dhip

    "ok,,what do I do,,,joined in oct..,,no registered shoots close enough since then.,,,,

    Where eill they put me,,no average yet and registered shoots starting in about 2 weeks in my area."

    Well Doug the rules say they can put you in any class until you establish an average. So until you have 300-500 targets they will probably classify you in B or higher. Some don't they use there own judgment.

    Your yardage will be 20 yards unless there is penalty yardage in the program. If there is no penalty yardage it will be 20

    I have provided a link to the online rulebook above you might want to read through the Classification and Handicap and earned yardage sections these sections should help you understand your class and yardage better in the beginning.

    I wouldn't worry to much about it as they will more than likely explain things as you go. If you have specific questions about thing that aren't clear in the classification areas just wait until the early push at the table is not so big and ask they will usually walk you through the thing you don't understand. Good luck and enjoy yourself.

    grnberetcj no classifier has the right to change a shooters yardage unless he is also a member of the CHC or there is penalty yardage in the program.

    Bob Lawless
     
  12. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

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    : Grousehunterkel I can understand the PR thing but just how many shooters fail to fill out the Average cards ?? Also from the point of PR why should anyone fill out the cards if some don,t need to . If shooter A can get by with not doing it and ends up in a lower class why not shooter B .

    You need to be fair thats why we have an adverage card and if it,s not up to date it,s not PR to the rest of the shooters .
     
  13. Grousehunterkel

    Grousehunterkel TS Member

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    Alf-I would say that the percentage of shooters not having an accurate card is between 5 and 10 percent. I'm encompassing no scores,some scores, scores with no average etc. Very few people mark wins and ties. Without complete accurate information, it is difficult to properly classify a shooter. Please keep this in mind-It is the shooters responsibility to be properly classified. A shooter could be disqualified for shooting in the wrong class or wrong yardage. If we get a complaint, we would investigate....Glenn
     
  14. Pocatello

    Pocatello Active Member

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    At my club we use the 3-S shoot software. I make sure that the shooter data in the program is the most recent available. For example our last shoot was Saturday March 6, and had the ATA data posted Wednesday March 3. That data included results from our February 6 Shoot. The currently available ATA data is dated March 17 and includes results from our March 6 shoot. I am reasonably sure the averages displayed from this data set are accurate and reasonably current for most shooters. If the average is close to a class line, I ask to see the paper card to look for class wins and ties, low scores that would artificially deflate the average, or other information. If their average card is not filled out, I would put them in a higher class.

    There still can be problems, particularly with new shooters. At our last shoot there was a new shooter from Utah who came to be classified. He had just joined a week or so before, and his information was not yet in the system. I asked about how he averaged in practice, and he told me "in the low twenties". I put him class B (the shoot had class A-D). He won class B with a 99, which tied with the Class A high. If he comes to our next shoot I will place him in class A.

    As Bob mentioned above, unless there is a statement in the program about penalty yardage, a classifier is not allowed to put a shooter at a higher yardage than s/he is assigned by the ATA. The only ones allowed to increase yardage for a shooter are the members of the Central Handicap Committee or a voting member of the Executive Committee.
     
  15. WWB

    WWB Member

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    Thanks guys, that's the kind of infor I needed and was looking for. I think the Number of shooters today who did not have averages figured was greater than 10%. But, I am going to give out copies of the sheet as suggested by Mr Lawless [thanks Bob} at the next shoot to all who DO NOT meet their responsiblities.......then, at the next shoot I will tell them to fill it out properly before they come to be classified if they still persist......meets the club goal of PR , lines will be quicker and rules will start to be followed.
    Bill
     
  16. phirel

    phirel TS Member

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    Bill- There is another, often over looked problem with the average cards. Many that are completely filled out have incorrect averages. This is usually due to carelessness. Some averages are rounded and some are calculated to 4 decimal points. With a little experience, glancing at the scores can give you an approximate average and this can be compared to the calculated average. Also, remember the average is only one of three things that is used to classify shooters.

    Pat Ireland
     
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