1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

Classification.... Power Trip?

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by midalake, Jul 9, 2009.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,658
    I returned from a large shoot format this last week. In my 15+ years in the ATA I never really had this type of experience. I want to know how many other people have experienced this and WHY this would happen. All target requirements were met and exceeded. My 2007 singles Ave. 97.00, 2008 96.91, Current at shoot time 96.00. When I received my classification slip it had an AA ranking on it. I asked why I would have an AA ranking when my average is not over 97.00. I was told well your AA. I protested and wanted someone else to look at my card. This person looked at it and said your class is AA. We went round and round again, it should be noted that my lowest score for the year is a 94. High 97. I told them again I have not shot in AA class for over two years and do not have any wins in A class this year. To no avail there was no change. quite frankly I was PISSED, If I would have not driven 5 hours that morning and needed the targets I would have told them to go to $ell. I shot at this facility over two years ago and thought the management was grade "C" at best. At this point I doubt I will ever go back. Do I need to go to thee ATA with this?


    Thanks GS
     
  2. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    6,258
    You didn't mention the number of targets you had in this target year other than it met the requirements, perhaps that had something to do with it. There can also be some subjective influences like 'known ability' which usually means somebody remembers you shooting a winning score at their club. I'm assuming that 97.0 was the cut off between A and AA.

    I wouldn't take it personally, handicappers do make mistakes. Usually when a shooter is real close to the cutt off, I look for reasons to get them into the next highest class but do that with the shooter's involvement in the rationale. Most guys are thrilled to make that jump into AA. Truth is AA or A class, you pretty much need to run the birds to win on any given day, an 'average' score usually doesn't get you much.
     
  3. miketmx

    miketmx Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,961
    The ATA rulebook has guidelines but actual classification is up to the discretion of the Shoot management. If I personally had a 96.91 average in 2008, I would not complain about being placed in Class AA.
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    If the club is using a 6 class system AA 96.25% and under 98% You need to supply us with just a little more information.

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. shark1

    shark1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    396
    In my opinion what has been written in your post. The class should be AA. Are you shooting for a trophy or to win out right? Probably not what you wanted to read but take AA as a compliment.
    Michael Sharkey, DC
     
  6. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,658
    More info.... Singles classes D-AA......A cutoff 96.99 09 average, 96 08 Average 96.91, 07 Average 97.0. Also for the bleeding heart theory, I for one would like to earn AA class rather than a hand-out.


    Thanks GS
     
  7. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,222
    In the long run what difference does it make it will take a AA score to win in A class anyway .
     
  8. Hauxfan

    Hauxfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    5,074
    When I had an average like that (years ago), it really didn't make any difference where they classified me, as I had to break them all to win.

    Hauxfan!
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,538
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    midalake

    "Also for the bleeding heart theory, I for one would like to earn AA class rather than a hand-out."

    They may be seeing you just the opposite you may be viewed as a threat to the shooters in A class especially those that are just about A class. Your average on the last three years is only a couple of tenth under AA therefore a threat to those in A class. A threat.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,542
    Location:
    HELL, MICHIGAN
    Personally, I think it's shameful that people attack someone for asking a reasonable question. It's not what it takes to win, it's what's the correct classification. Unfortunately, not enough information to really state clearly, but, It's appears that a reasonable rules interpretation would make it "A".


    Jim Chapman

    Big [​IMG] Perazzi!!!
     
  11. Bucko43

    Bucko43 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2008
    Messages:
    1,811
    Location:
    Lakeside, California
    GS,

    I am right there with you. I've voiced my opinion about this more than once.

    The club where I normally shoot ATA is always putting me in the AA category in the small shoots with an average of 96.67. I have never hit 100 straight in competition yet, and that's what it takes to win in the AA class (plenty of 99's, but no 100). I don't feel I am a AA shooter by any means, but they continue to put me in the higher class. And I continue to shoot against folks that hit 100 every time they shoot singles.

    In the larger shoots (like a zone shoot) they will drop me back to A class and I'll have twice as many people to shoot against, thus making it that much harder to win.

    I have never won an event when I've been placed in the AA class. So it makes it discouraging to shoot in the smaller shoots when you know there's no way you can win.

    I've decided that I could care less about my scores while shooting singles in ATA, and am going to concentrate on shooting handicap from now on.

    Kevin
     
  12. KEYBEAR

    KEYBEAR Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,222
    Buck Most small shoots are four class anyway D-C-B-A AND AA
     
  13. JRW

    JRW Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    823
    midalake the title of your thread says it all. I think you ran into someone on a power trip. When you asked to have another opinion, that person did not want to cross his buddy. Jerry
     
  14. Hap MecTweaks

    Hap MecTweaks Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,226
    Location:
    Mesquite, Nevada
    Classifiers at the larger shoots should also consider the numbers of high scores shot in determining an average in addition. How many 100s does a guy have on his card? 99s and on down to his cards average. A shooter can have an honest A average and never broken a 100 in his life. Putting such a shooter in AA class is the power trip mentioned above just because he can! That's not right by any stretch. Pat Ireland should give classifying lessons in proper procedures used by clubs!!

    Hap
     
  15. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    8,542
    Location:
    HELL, MICHIGAN
    Brings up an interesting question. are you classified based on what you could possibly shoot? or, what you are expected to shoot......
     
  16. JB Logan Co. Ohio

    JB Logan Co. Ohio TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,327
    It sounds to me we're working with esentially two rules here, one of which is appearently unspoken. One "published" in the fact that they are written down or stated in the program. Under this average you are X class, numbers based, you know...look it up on a chart. The other rule is one of opinion which is harder for more than one person at a time to apply or agree to.

    JB=Jerry Beach 8503917
     
  17. Barry C. Roach

    Barry C. Roach Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,208
    Location:
    Scottsdale, AZ
  18. midalake

    midalake Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    3,658
    Not sure why everyone wants the target count but here it is: 2007 1400 singles, 2008 1100, and 300 when i walked up to the counter for this shoot. I have no 100's carded..........I did have one hundred split in a 200 bird event.

    GS
     
  19. rennerize

    rennerize Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,925
    I have to say "A" all the way.
    Don
     
  20. phirel

    phirel TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    9,556
    Classification should be based on the shooters current average, last years average, wins and ties (these are seldom marked on the cards and never in the computer). It is not too uncommon to classify two shooters with the same average in different classes. A shooter with a 96.8 average, several 100 straights, one or two unusually low scores and a win at his state shoot will go to AA, but another shooter with a 96.8 average, no wins and no 100 straights could be classified as A.

    Also, a shooter with a 93.9 average shooting good scores from the 27 yard line could get moved to A and another shooter with a 93.9 average shooting average scores from the 22 yard line might be classified as B.

    The rule book states that it is the shooters responsibility to make certain they are classified properly. When a shooter who is on the line between classes is classified, the person doing the classification should discuss the situation with the shooter and at least explain how the classification decision was determined.

    Next week I will be classifying at the Southern Zone shoot. Often, I will state to a shooter that he could be classed in either B or C. I then ask him what is fair. Almost always, the shooter will recommend the higher class. A few will not. If the shooter does not help me, I will hit one computer key and see his shooting history, what scores were shot at each club. Targets shot in January in Michigan will not be given as much consideration as January targets shot in Florida. The last 1000 targets will be given more credibility than the first 1000 shot this year.

    There are two goals in proper classification. One is to be fair to the individual shooter and the second is to be fair to the shooters he is shooting against.

    Pat Ireland
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.