1. Attention: We have put together a thread with tips and a tutorial video to help with using the new software. Please take a moment to check out the thread here: Trapshooters.com Tutorial & Help Video.
    Dismiss Notice

CLASSIFICATION & KNOWN ABILILTY, THROW IT OUT!

Discussion in 'Uncategorized Threads' started by senior smoke, Sep 24, 2008.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,585
    Location:
    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
    HELLO:
    first of all, my hat is off to anyone who classifies at any shoot. it is a thankless & hard job. to make everyone's job easier, and to stop arguments, i suggest throw out "known ability". to this day, numerous clubs are staunch supporters of using known ability as a added tool when they when they classify. usually the only people who are affected is their own members who shoot an ATA program. anyone who takes classifing seriously, and they all should, should always classify a shooter where he could still have the chance to win his or her class. not raise their class so high, that they do not stand a chance to win. there is a gun club in my area, who to this day strongly believe in "known ability" when classifying. for years, certain people who did the classifing "NEVER FORGOT WHEN A SHOOTER SHOT A GOOD SCORE". THE PROBLEM WAS, THEY COULD NEVER RECALL THEIR OWN GOOD SCORES & THE REMAINING 99% OF THE OTHER SHOOTERS POOR SCORES WHEN CLASSIFING. i believe that some clubs, and it's classifing people, take it personally when they put a shooter in a lower class for a shoot, and that shooter has a good day of shooting and wins. this is not known ability, it was a FLUKE that day when that shooter had a good score. every all american, regardless of age, then should always be AA class then, under known ability. lets get rid of this known ability, lets classify straight off the ATA average card. it will be more fair for everyone, and stop alot of hostility. what do you think?
    steve balistreri
     
  2. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    437
    This is a really cloudy kind of thing known ability especially for relatively new shooters like me 2 years as of 2008. Now here is the reality of it for me anyway. I shoot in upstate NY way upstate by Watertown. All of my practice time is at the local clubs here they do not throw ATA targets. Our targets are faster many do not have voice release (pullers pushing the buttons) and no radar guns to set target speeds.

    Hence I'm erratic sometimes good sometimes bad. I go to the ATA shoots down by the Cicero area where they throw nice radar set targets with voice release and once in a while shoot a good score. By a good score I mean a 97,98,99. I'm certainly capable of that score but not on a regular basis. I'm a C-class shooter right now at 92.95 % according to the ATA.

    Now down to one of the bigger shoots I go and on a Thursday I break a 93 nothing to write home about but I'm starting to feel it as I can tell I'm getting acclimated to the targets. Friday I go down and Break a 98 now I know I'm feeling it and am seeing the targets really well. Saturday I go out and break 2 97's for a 194 not a winner but pretty good for a C . I move up to B class.

    Then the shoot is over I go back to shooting upstate and break 2 or 3 85's at the local ATA shoots. Not good, my average plummets and I go back down to C.

    People remember the 97's 98's and 99's never the 82's . No complaints here just the reality of the Known Ability of this Class-C shooter. None of this really matters to me as I'm looking for the 200 and the shoot off for all the marbles but to others I know it does. If you win they bitch like crazy just put me in AAA and be done with it.
     
  3. Steve NJ

    Steve NJ Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    250
    Classifiers need the leeway to put shooters where they belong. Known ability takes care of that. Unless you have sat in that chair you don’t know all the possible scenario’s that take place in classification. If you think you have been wronged discuss it with the classifier. Most are willing to listen. I know I am.
     
  4. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    senior smoke you wrote "anyone who takes classifing seriously, and they all should, should always classify a shooter where he could still have the chance to win his or her class. not raise their class so high, that they do not stand a chance to win." I wonder are these your opinion or is this part of the rules you are using to make this statement? I ask because in the rulebook says.

    C. CLASSIFICATION
    1. For 16-yard targets and Doubles, shooters should be placed in three
    (3) or more classes, according to their established average and/or
    known ability. A new shooter may be assigned to any class in 16-yards
    and Doubles events, at the discretion of classification personnel until
    the shooter establishes his/her known ability.

    The rulebook also says

    "a. To arrive at known ability the following should be taken into consideration as far as such information is or can be made
    available:

    (1) Official registered targets (abnormally low scores should be
    disregarded). Averages of all registered shooters are compiled
    and published annually.

    (2) Non-registered scores including Shoot-off scores, nonregistered
    events, practice scores, etc.

    (3) Any other information bearing on a shooter’s ability to shoot
    and break targets."

    Now in all of my searching I can find anything that says a classifier.
    "should always classify a shooter where he could still have the chance to win his or her class." So I am assuming that this is your opinion.

    As long as we are giving opinions I feel that the classifier has a duty to the majority of the shooters in any class. If a shooters ability suggests that he is to good for the rest of the shooters in a class. Then he needs to be in the class that matches his ability. If that doesn't sit well with you then you have my sympathies but not my support.

    I will give you an example an obvious one but a possibility none the less. A shooter come to the classifier on his card he has 100,100,99,97,and 80 his average is 95.2 do you believe he belongs in A? That is what his average alone says. Of course if you throw out the 80 his average is 99 so do us a favor think about what you are asking for before you ask or you might get it.

    Bob Lawless
     
  5. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,585
    Location:
    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
    like i previously wrote, it is a hard thankless job. i still say, unify it, just go by the average card.
    steve
     
  6. Rico46

    Rico46 TS Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    725
    Steve it would be a great idea if all shooters updated and validated their score cards. I know shooters who do "not" update their cards and the system doesn't always catch them. So giving the classifier leeway on known ability status works for me.

    Rick Brohmer
     
  7. Steve NJ

    Steve NJ Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    250
    Less then 50% of shooter have their average card filled out and the average up to date and correct.
     
  8. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,865
    What if a guy shows up with a C average at the State Shoot year after year and shoots a high score and wins C singles and maybe HOA let's say three times, Steve. Does he get to do that for the rest of his life?

    Neil
     
  9. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    widomaker with all due respect to you and your ability. You said your average was a C class average. I say only in a 6 class system 90% and under 93% C.

    In all of the class systems 5 4 & 3 you would be in B class. You said your average was 92.95 you were 1/20th of a point from B class in a 6 class system. So I don't for one believe you can be considered a C class shooter. Of course that is just my opinion.

    Bob Lawless
     
  10. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    10,124
    Location:
    Northampton PA
    Neil obviously has never classified in PA. The "known ability rule" suffered an untimely death there many years ago!!
     
  11. senior smoke

    senior smoke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 30, 2007
    Messages:
    7,585
    Location:
    Wauwatosa Wisconsin
    Neil:
    in my state of Wisconsin, one of the all time nice guys and my friend, who has classified for years, given his time unselfishly, and who happens to always be in class c or b, has had scores of 99 and i think a 97 in the sunday handicap at our state shoot. do i think he is a sandbager, no. i do feel he loves the sport, and when a major shoot comes up, he just happens to run 2 great scores. did he play all the money, no. i love trapshooting, i think the world of most of our fellow shooters, but as most of us know, trying to make a change in our sport, for whatever reason, is like fighting city hall. all i am saying, if we just went by the avearge card, it would make life easier for the people who unselfishley donate their time and energy, and would cause alot less problems.
    steve
     
  12. Pipe Layer

    Pipe Layer Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    1,076
    Location:
    ky.
    Senior Smoke,
    I had a shooter that slipped by for three years at our state shoot that came thru with a D class singles average. He broke a 100 three years in a roll then when out after bump up and won C. He had a enough nerve after breking a 100 in D class whenI found him and bumped him to AA to say if he had known I was going to do that he would have not have played all the money.This is just one of many.
    DO I GO BY HIS AVERAGE CARD NEXT YEAR??

    Terry Dean


    Ky. Delegate
     
  13. Hitapair

    Hitapair Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    2,346
    Steve, I agree it would make life easier for the classifier but I disagree on the lot less problems part of it. Anything that encourages sandbagging, and eliminating known ability would do that, creates more proplems, not less. I personally have never heard a classifier complaining about their job nor have I ever heard a heated argument between a shooter and a classifier, but I'm sure it does occur.
     
  14. 635 G

    635 G Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 30, 2008
    Messages:
    6,238
    Hey widowmaker, you shot stop bad mouthing your local club in NY---they might demand your resignation.

    Lou
     
  15. widomaker

    widomaker TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2007
    Messages:
    437
    Bob:

    No argument here at all.

    I think your absolutly correct.

    The excitement is the Campbells, Ohye's, Schaffers, Winston's, Pasco's Heath's etc. Someday I'd love to be invited to shoot on a squad with an All American win lose or draw that would make my year. Thats really my goal. And worth more than any trophy I could ever win. Except for maybe getting into one of the big shoot offs against one of them. When I was leaving the NE Grand this year I smiled at David Schaffer Jr. and said see you at the shootoff next year he just smiled back and said see you there..... Thats where its at .... not A B C or D.
     
  16. ivanhoe

    ivanhoe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 1998
    Messages:
    7,539
    Location:
    Oxford MA
    senior smoke you have said. " one of the all time nice guys and my friend, who has classified for years, given his time unselfishly,"

    Now I ask is this your friends complaint or yours? It is hard to tell because you also said "for years, certain people who did the classifing "NEVER FORGOT WHEN A SHOOTER SHOT A GOOD SCORE". THE PROBLEM WAS, THEY COULD NEVER RECALL THEIR OWN GOOD SCORES & THE REMAINING 99% OF THE OTHER SHOOTERS POOR SCORES WHEN CLASSIFING." It is confusing because you say your friend got a bad deal yet you seem to be complaining from a personal view.

    You also said "if we just went by the avearge card, it would make life easier for the people who unselfishley donate their time and energy, and would cause alot less problems." Terry Dean told of a D shooter that " He broke a 100 three years in a roll then when out after bump up and won C." You believe that this type of classifying for a shooter such as he speaks of would cause "a lot less problems"? Tell me it is not so.

    Bob Lawless
     
  17. JBrooks

    JBrooks TS Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2006
    Messages:
    3,707
    Neil asked:

    "What if a guy shows up with a C average at the State Shoot year after year and shoots a high score and wins C singles and maybe HOA let's say three times, Steve. Does he get to do that for the rest of his life?"

    Based on the underlying theory of sports classification which is designed to group competitors of similar ability into defined classes AND if the shooter's skill ability correctly puts him in C class, then, yes. A participant is supposed to be able to win his Class and if the classification is based on an average, winning his class has little bearing on whether he can win in the next higher class.

    There are two fundamental goals of any classification system in any sport.

    The first fundamental goal is to assure that a singular participant is not misclassified into a class where their ability level is demonstrably superior to other members of the class thereby creating an unfair situation for all of the other class members. Conversely, the second fundamental goal is to ensure that the singular participant is not misclassified into a class where their ability level is demonstrably inferior to other members of the class thereby creating an unfair situation for the individual participant.

    Failure in either area results in justifiably unhappy participants which is not good for the sport.

    While Neil's example is a little extreme, were it the case, the shooter could be accused of manipulating a flawed classification system.

    The fundamental flaw in the ATA system is that it is based upon the mathematical reality of a carried average but relies on the purely subjective judgment of the classifier to adjust the reality of the average. Because that judgment is subjective and personal to that classifier, you will never acheive a consistent outcome over a broad sampling.
     
  18. shark1

    shark1 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2007
    Messages:
    396
    Shoudn't a shooter in a higher class want to stay in that class, (unless due to old age vet, sr vet ect.). Once that shooter wins he/she should be moved up for a good while example 2-3 yrs. I had a lucky shoot this year but I do not want down in b class because of pride. If you are doing this sport for the trophy or the low money payout stop and wonder. Good times , good people try it again next week or next year (major shoot zone, state). The only question that I have is the a-aa class determined by average or known ability or both?
    Mike Sharkey, DC
     
  19. recurvyarcher

    recurvyarcher Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2006
    Messages:
    6,450
    I thought that the people who classify have the ability to verify your average. I know at the smaller club shoots, the classifiers are not sitting at a computer, so they don't verify there, but what about the shoots where the computer system is up and running?

    I like the "known ability" clause, but I also have seen and known people who are inconsistent in their scores (for various reasons that had nothing to do with sandbagging).
     
  20. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2007
    Messages:
    6,266
    The known ability criteria isn't used as a tool to keep people out of the winner's circle. It is intended to be used to place shooters in a class that they will be challenged by. Also keep in mind that regardless the class you are going to need a score well above your average to win at any well attended shoot.

    Here is an example of how known ability works to a competitor's advantage;
    A friend of mine went into a shooting slump about a year ago and his continued to plumment until he was in C class headed toward D class singles. He went to a release trigger and worked on his problems and now he is consistently shooting in the high 90's. We know this to be his current ability and we classify him accordingly. Now he is happy to be shooting in the higher class (self esteem) and the lower classification shooters don't have to compete against someone that will probably shoot a perfect score.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.