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Classes for Pros - study

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by mallard2, Oct 25, 2011.

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  1. mallard2

    mallard2 Active Member

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    There is an interesting, although unofficial, study done a few years ago that looked at scores shot at ATA Grand or Sat. Grands in that given year, by known people for whom someone provides shells, money, travel, etc. - at least one pretty good definition of "Pro".

    The study compared those scores to scores of other A & AA 27 yd. shooters.

    One part of the analysis that I recall is that the standard deviation (just a statistical measure of differences in average for any kind of scores - school tests, IQs, etc.) was a whopping 8.0.

    That means that on a given day (all the days averaged together), the pro shooter outshoots regular but top classed long yardage shooters by at least 8 targets.

    Now, we all know when Joe my buddy beat Leo in a shootoff. But that is not the point. The point is that day in and day out, pro shooters are in a class by themselves performance wise. After all, it is why someone is paying them to shoot.

    So, we can be braggers and posers, but we might as well hand them a check for our entry fees and shells if you think we are going to compete on anything close to a regular basis with the pro shooter.

    If knowing that makes one a crybaby,who consistantly gets beat by pro shooters at big shoots, at least it makes them a smarter crybaby.
     
  2. crusha

    crusha TS Member

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    ...but it still won't stop the crybabies from wailing about target settings.


    In fact, here comes a few of them now:
     
  3. mallard2

    mallard2 Active Member

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    True, dat. True, dat.
     
  4. jim brown

    jim brown Well-Known Member

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    Don't play the purses and options then they won't get your money.

    jim brown
     
  5. mallard2

    mallard2 Active Member

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    But, Jim, you still can't win, but maybe that is not point of entering, I understand.
     
  6. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I suggest that the statistic 8.0 did not refer to the standard deviation, but rather the difference in means. Right?

    That's a _lot_.

    Neil
     
  7. mallard2

    mallard2 Active Member

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    Yes, I believe you are correct.
     
  8. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    "That means that on a given day (all the days averaged together), the pro shooter outshoots regular but top classed long yardage shooters by at least 8 targets."

    I don't buy it. You sure you understand what you read? Sure sounds good here though, LS will have that as gospel before long.

    As Roger already stated, how were the inputs to the model determined? I simply do not believe that comparing the "Pro's" to the next level of shooters (not sure what top classed long yardage refers to?) is that much of a difference. Compared to me, yeah it could be true, but there are a lot of better caps shooters than I. Seems to me they might avearge 8 targets more then most shooters, but not compared to better handicap shooters. "Top classed long yardage" makes it sound like they are comparing to the next best "non-pro" shooters, but that simply does not add up.

    I guess I'm getting to be a bit short with people recently, sorry about that, but the amount of BS I'm reading on here lately just seems to be growing.
     
  9. Two Dogs

    Two Dogs Well-Known Member

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    So in your thinking ....our ATA presidents that all got 16,000 dollars for a new shotgun are all now PRO?
     
  10. IndyShotgun

    IndyShotgun TS Member

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    The crybabies who want to keep target settings just as they are, or even lessen them, aren't going to help the sport grow. Those crybabies are just looking out for themselves.

    Don't be a crybaby. Make the targets harder.
     
  11. Jawhawker

    Jawhawker TS Member

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    Granted there are a few that excel each and everyday in our sport. But theere is a another level just beneath them that at a given tournament may actually win the HOA. Eight targets difference as an average per given 100 target event is mystical from my view. Now maybe I don't understand the statistical models entered so can you scan the data and post to here? I don't remember this analysis in print.

    Also, who compiled and completed this data you referrence? Who were the designated "PROS" that were cited?
     
  12. bigben

    bigben Active Member

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    Indy shotgun, thanks for you input, the sorry truth is this was tried in 1995, the rank and file said throw 3 hole targets, we'll stick it to em! results? the A's went to B's the c"s went to D's the D's went into the septic tank etc. The simple fact is the "big boys" as the rank and file know them have just OUTWORKED, the rest, in their early careers and now know how to break targets! Leo, Pat, Kay, Brad Dysinger and many more have corrective lenses, me, I'm blessed , an old man with 20/10 vision uncorrected the only chance I have is when the bad light conditions give me an unfair advantage. I marvel at their work ethic, One night in the winter at the State road gun club, All American fall of fame Pat Mcarthy was shooting doubles practice, I was pulling, the snow was coming sideways, this is at night, he ran 100 straight, then asked me to join him, snot was running out of my nose, I said nope, he then ran ANOTHER 100 in this blizzard, ,Who amongst you would work like this?, and by the way, all at his expense not very many! Preliminary Grand, rain coming down so hard I had water coming OUT of my back fence jacket pockets , 2 shooters and me total in this torrential downpour, Kaye Ohye and Debbie! Another All -American dry fires 200 times a night when not competing, do you? It Anything done with grace looks easy, until you you have or exceeded the price that they have paid, please don't complain! incinerate em!
     
  13. Alex Ragulsky

    Alex Ragulsky TS Member

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    Bigben:

    I agree with you 100%, Sir! Making the game harder will not make the best shooters no longer the best. They will just continue to practice and widen the gap between them and everyone else. Simple fact is that the best shooters will always be the best shooters and you can't make it harder on the best and not make it harder on yourself.

    As far as the pro class, who is going to pay for it? Currently at most of the clubs I shoot at every class shoots for their own money (except Lewis, jackpots, etc). I guess you could call that a pro class. If you can't best the best then just don't play a purse where you are shooting against them.

    Back when we shot 3 hole targets my average did go down but I wasn't shooting all that well before. But the big guns continued to beat me, but now by a wider margin.

    The answer is to practice. You mentioned Pat McCarthy and his doubles routine. Same with Kay and Debbie, and many others. It's a lifestyle for many of them. When is the last time you saw Stafford or other top dogs guzzling beer at 11:00 PM the night before a shoot? When is the last time that one of these greats showed up at a big shoot for just the last two days? Oc course both happen but generally they win because of not only who they are but what they do.

    And when I get a chance to shoot against them, oh my, what an honor! The playing field is equal and I spent just as much (on the purses) as I could afford to lose. When I beat them it is me, some ham-n-egger beating a great, not some guy shooting at different targets, on a different trap, with different guns or shells.

    Bigben, your response hit that one out of the park.

    Respectfully,

    Alex Ragulsky
     
  14. bigben

    bigben Active Member

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    Alex, thank you so much for your insightful response, so many times we hear the complaints from those who don't understand or chose no to, it appears that people who excel at any endeavor are cast in a negative light, as one all american told me one day as we were waiting for another event, "no one likes a winner" , I told him nope, winners like other winners as they understand what price it takes to be good, losers hate winners as they want to be as good with no effort , it will never happen! incinerate em!
     
  15. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Great explanation Ben.
     
  16. Alex Ragulsky

    Alex Ragulsky TS Member

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    You know what kills me? Guys who don't get in those long shoot offs complaining about people who do and how unfair it is. I never see people complain when they are in a shoot off and are the center of attention. But yet those who sit on the sidelines and watch somehow feel that this is an injustice?

    I've been in a couple long multi-day carry-overs and a couple 200+ outright shoot offs and I had a blast! When the tie was finally settled no one came up to me saying how the shoot off was unfair or how sorry they were for me because it took so long to settle the tie from a few days before. Win or lose the spectators and fellow competitors express sincere best wishes.

    Shoot offs can be exhausting but the better shooter that day wins! If being in a shoot off is too physically demanding then you can forefeit or get into better shape. Before I was born ties were settled with shoot offs. That's the way it is.

    The pro class, much like 3 hole targets, won't change anything. Again, if people don't want the big guns to talk their money then they shouldn't play the options. I've never been angry or disappointed when someone doesn't participate just like I don't get angry when I lose my money.

    Bigben--come to Colorado and we'll do some shooting.

    Respectfully,

    Alex Ragulsky
     
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