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Chronographed Titegroup Data

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Bama73, Jun 26, 2012.

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  1. Bama73

    Bama73 Member

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    I got to try some loads with Titegroup over a chronograph yesterday and thought I would share my findings here. I ran 2 controls with factory premium shells which gave very different results. First control was Winchester Super Handicap 1-1/8 @ 1250 advertised. It chronographed at the listed velocity almost on the dot. The second control was Remington STS 2-3/4 dram 1-1/8 @ 1145 advertised.
    This load ran about 32fps faster than the advertised velocity which from what I have read is about normal for shotguns on a standard chrony. So I'll let yall decide who is lying.

    My biggest reason for doing these tests were that when I loaded Titegroup to 1255fps according to the data there is a good bit less felt recoil than a standard AA Super Handicap which made me wonder if they ran slower. On the contrary it was pretty much spot on with the AA's which was a pleasent surprise.

    I also wanted to test the Winchester primers against Nobel Sports in the same load as it's been said they are a direct substitute. According to the loads I tested that seems to be correct which is a financial bonus as well.

    The biggest oddity I found was with the upper limit load the data was very close. The slower loads seem to run slower than the book listed velocity. All In all I think I have found my singles (17 grains) and handicap (18.2 grains)loads and am very well pleased with the results.

    The book says with these components 15.9 grains should produce 1145fps, 17.4 grains should produce 1200fps, and 18.4 grains should produce 1255fps.

    Here are the 5 shot strings from the 2 controls and 7 tested reloads for anyone who is interested, all loading was performed on a MEC 9000GN


    Winchester AA Super handicap factory 1250fps listed

    1251
    1257
    1243
    1224
    1272

    SD N/A
    ES 48
    AVG 1251


    Remington STS 2-3/4 Dram 1-1/8 @ 1145fps factory

    1170
    1193
    1167
    1172
    1184

    SD 10
    ES 26
    Avg 1177


    18.4 grains Titegroup hand weighed, Nobel Sport Primer, DRXL1-1/8 wad, AAHS Hull

    1249
    1238
    1251
    1250
    1231

    SD 8
    ES 20
    AVG 1243


    18.4 grains Titegroup hand weighed, Winchester Primer, DRXL1-1/8 wad, AAHS Hull


    1239
    1251
    1232
    1241
    1248

    SD 7
    ES 19
    AVG 1242


    18.0-18.2 grains Titegroup, Modified bushing dropped, Nobel Sport Primer, DRXL1-1/8 wad, AAHS Hull

    1234
    1250
    1231
    1226
    1226

    SD 9
    ES 24
    AVG 1233


    17.7-17.9 grains Titegroup, # 18 bushing dropped, Nobel Sport Primer, DRXL1-1/8 wad, AAHS Hull

    1230
    1224
    1234
    1209
    1212

    SD 10
    ES 25
    AVG 1221


    17.0-17.2 grains Titegroup, # 17 bushing dropped, Nobel Sport Primer, DRXL1-1/8 wad, AAHS Hull

    1178
    1193
    1171
    1192
    1170

    SD 11
    ES 23
    AVG 1180


    16.4 grains Titegroup hand weighed, Nobel Sport Primer, DRXL1-1/8 wad, AAHS Hull

    1128
    1128
    1141
    1137
    1152

    SD 10
    ES 24
    AVG 1137



    15.9 grains Titegroup hand weighed, Nobel Sport Primer, DRXL1-1/8 wad, AAHS Hull

    1127
    1118
    1129
    1112
    1115

    SD 7
    ES 17
    AVG 1120
     
  2. HTSmith

    HTSmith Active Member

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    Thanks so much for sharing very useful data. Have you been pleased with the nobel sports primers overall? I've yet to try the less expensive primers, but with shot remaining so expensive, it's time to make the move.
     
  3. 4th. down

    4th. down Active Member

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    Tide, thanks for the report. Have you ever compared Green Dot with TG?
     
  4. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    Good information, but my only concern with the 18.4 grains of titegroup your chamber pressure is 11,400 psi. That is way too high to be shooting in a trap gun repetitively.

    If you feel that you need to run those velocities I suggest you find a slower burning powder similar to Green Dot.

    Judging by the results in chamber pressure Titegroup is NOT comparable to Green Dot.

    Bryan
     
  5. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Remington uses Tightgroup in their factory Handicap loads and have no issues with PSI's over 11,000. Remington may understand pressures better than us laymen!!
     
  6. Bama73

    Bama73 Member

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    HT I have used over 20,000 of the Nobel primers with maybe 3 FTF thus far, I have been extremely happy with them. Most at our range use them as well with similar results. I mainly wanted to compare them with the Winchesters to see if they produced similar results and that was shown in the data to me it's a no brainer. Only drawback is they do stretch the primer pockets so if you use them you have to keep using them from what I understand.


    4th down, RTR ! I tried a pound of Green Dot once and made the mistake of loading during a monsoon and my powder drops ranged from 13-18 grains. After I cut those apart I tried loading on different days and for some odd reason could never get consistent drops on my set up. I have loaded 40lbs of promo with great results but for some reason the Green Dot doesn't like me. And load for load the TG uses less powder and is more economical for me which is important since I am on a very limited budget.

    Plus this Titegroup is BY FAR the cleanest and lowest recoiling powder I have tried yet. I handed 4 different people a 1250 TG load and a factory AA Super Handicap load without telling them which is which and all said the TG load kicked much less. I dont know if it's the DRXL1-1/8 wad or what, but it's MUCH softer shooting and that's important for me as well.

    Calkid I modified a bushing to throw 18-18.2 grains of Titegroup to make sure I wasn't going over max pressure. The way I understand it many factory shells are at 11k psi or so for cleaner burns and millions of factory shells are fired yearly.
     
  7. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    Interesting you says factory loads are near the 11k mark. I wonder if there is any data to this. From Downrange wads them self they say that the cut off psi for a 10 shot string in a 2 3/4"/ 3" shotgun is 11.5k.

    As far as Mr. Layman above I didn't pull those number out if my arse it is written in black and white on the Hogodon website.

    Bryan
     
  8. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Calkidd,

    What's your educational background that states you are smarter that the people the determined maximum acceptable load pressure (SAMMI specs)? Please elaborate!

    ss
     
  9. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    Did you not read in my post that the information I got was from Downrange wads specifically their ballistics department? Did I say I was smarter than anyone? Clearly just presenting the facts.

    I went back to my threads and never did I give any opinions other than not liking 11.4k chamber pressure. Please elaborate where this was conveyed.

    Bryan.
     
  10. oleolliedawg

    oleolliedawg Banned User Banned TS Supporters

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    Me thinks are seldom facts!!
     
  11. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    "Good information, but my only concern with the 18.4 grains of titegroup your chamber pressure is 11,400 psi. That is way too high to be shooting in a trap gun repetitively."

    Pretty sure this statement covers it Calkidd. You made a statement of fact and not opinion as worded. Had you started the last line with, "In my opinion, I feel that, etc" then it would have been a statement of opinion.

    ss
     
  12. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    It is a fact, see my comment about what information was received from Downrange. Pretty much says it all.

    I am not sure what issues you have. But nothing I wrote was my opinion it was all based off of facts I have gotten from manufactures. I might not have been clear in my first post but I clarifed it in my second which was before your post.

    Since we are talking facts please show me these SAMMI results so that I may be more educated.
     
  13. halfmile

    halfmile Well-Known Member

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    11 thousand LUP would be too high.

    11 thousand PSI is not.

    A large amount of the load data out there still is listed in LUP, since they were measured that way and never updated when reprinted.

    There is NO way PSI and LUP can be interpolated, don't even try.

    HM
     
  14. Bama73

    Bama73 Member

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    I sure didn't mean to start an argument with this post. I merely stated what I "understand" as in what I have "heard" that's all nothing more. I do know Winchester says to use super handicap powder if you want to duplicate their super handicap shells and using all Winchester components, AAHS hull, WIN 209 primer, WAA12 wad, and 20.9 grains of super handicap powder produces 1255fps at 11,300 psi. And if what many have said is true about the original Nitro 27 loads using Titegroup powder then Hodgdon lists STS hull, Rem 209p primer, Rem fig 8 wad, 18.5 grains Titegroup 1255fps at 11,500 psi.


    Now having said all that does higher pressure loads cause more wear and tear on a trap gun ? I have no clue but I would assume it probably would. Would that mean to shoot a shell I like and have confidence in that my old Superposed may need an extra rebuild or 3 in my life, well thats OK by me. This is all OK for ME, just me, and I didn't mean to tell anyone to load what I do, I merely posted the data for information purposes in case anyone would like to know.
     
  15. short shucker

    short shucker TS Member

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    Bama73,

    No extra wear and tear is created by higher PSI shells. Now big payloads, like a lot of gamers use, will start working over things after a while.

    I've reloaded 40K + shells using Titegroup and not a single instance of increased wear has been exhibited by any of my guns. Same with a couple of shooting buddies that made the switch. Hull life is the same as what I'm use to and have had no problems with the head coming off the hull or the washing out of the head stamps.

    ss
     
  16. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    One property that I really like about Titegroup is that it seems to be very easy on hulls. Not much residue left behind and not much burning of the hull itself. I think this leads to extending the life of the hulls. It is certainly very diffcult to tell a once reloaded hull from a once fired factory Nitro 27.
     
  17. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    If its published in a reloading data book, its a safe load. Period.

    These guys aren't in business to blow your gun up.

    And its SAAMI, not SAMMI.

    Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers' Institute.
     
  18. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    So based on the above SAAMI publication the information I wrote is fact and not my person opinion? In addition because published reloading data is right at the threshold therefore it is safe?

    Please refer to the above link and read pages 12-14.

    Per SAAMI publication:

    Maximum Average Pressures: Is the recommended maximum pressure level for loading commercial sporting ammunition. This pressure level is positioned two standard errors below the Maximum Probable Lot Mean (MPLM) pressure in order to assure there is a 97.5% probability that the Maximum Probable Mean pressure is not exceeded.
     
  19. Avaldes

    Avaldes Well-Known Member

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    The chart on page 8 recommends that the maximum average pressure should be 11,500 psi. The maximum lot pressure should be 12,100 psi and maximum sample mean is 13,000 psi. It is good to have the entire standard in front of us for discussion. The basis for these levels is a lot of 10 shots where you calculate the mean and std deviations. Good stuff.
     
  20. timb99

    timb99 Well-Known Member

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    Yes Calkidd,

    If it is published it is safe. Period.

    My friends Chris Hodgdon and Ron Reiber say so. You can call them and ask them yourself.

    If it was not safe, they would not put it in their published data tables.

    Tim
     
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