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Choke Tube Q & A

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by Dr.Longshot, Apr 3, 2013.

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  1. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    There is not set of specific rules on choke tubes and choke tube designs.

    The first thing is the Bore Daimeter, Choke tube entry dimensions, and then the design of the choke tube.

    I found that Barrels with .015 reduc tion in bore diameter like the old Winchester Model 12s w/fixed choke, and the New Fabarms XLR5 which also has .015 tapered Bbls and their Choke Tube Design.

    A true trap gun with 2 3/4 inch chambers will shoot better patterns than a 3.0 inch Chambered Field style Bbl.

    The better patterning choke tubes have some paralell dimensions and up to.003
    bell relief at the end of the tube.

    You cannot just pick a Bbl out of the air and stick tubes in it and expect the same performance as a tuned Tube for that specific Bbl dimension.

    This also applies to fixed choke guns like the Bbls tuned by Kerry Allor and Tom Wilkinson, this takes time and reading the choke that is already bored into the Bbl.

    Why do you think that top trap shooters have their gun and shells matched to the choke, and shot pattern.

    Graphs do not work on all Bbls and chokes. They do not show exact pellet counts and shot sizes.

    You just cannpot expect a Perazzi MX-3 Bbl to perform as Bbls with various dimensions Like .722, .724, .728, .730, .732, .735, .738, .740, .45, .750
    Restrictions will not produce the same relults, Plus you have Long Tubes, Short Tubes, tubes with and without paralell dimensions.

    I have this to say the factory Caesar Guerini tubes for the Factory Bbls are one of the best performing tubes on the market, how do I know this I pattered them at 38-40 yards.

    13 yard patterning here is out the window, it will not show you patterns.

    One or two degrees of choke offset will only show up at 38-40 yards, that is why most shotgun Mfgrs use 38 yards for their tests.

    The Fabarms XLR5 Velocity has .015 Bbl taper, 2 3/4 inch chambers, and specially designed choke tubes. This gun was designed from the get go to be a trapgun, using 2 3/4 inch shells.

    There are a lot of errors in choke tube mfgring, depending on the machinist, the sharpness of the tooling, the honing and polishing of choke tubes, I once had a Briley tube that shot almost a full pattern to the left, I was at the San Antonio shoot and Briley exchanged the tube and that one was back to center, there are mistakes made, Briley made it good w/o questions and took it back to the factory for check out.

    I did not Slam Briley Or bitch, just told them it was a defective tube.

    It was nice that Briley had a booth and a large selection of tubes.

    Will input more data later on today.


    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  2. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I'm having a little trouble understaind this, Gary:

    "Graphs do not work on all Bbls and chokes. They do not show exact pellet counts and shot sizes"

    Could you say it another way?

    And I do look forward to what you have referred to as "more data."

    Neil
     
  3. Shooting Coach

    Shooting Coach Well-Known Member

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  4. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Gary, how much better are the CG tubes? Do you mean the pellets are evenly dispersed in the quadrants, and the pellet count is higher than your normal full choke at 40 yards? 80%, 85% or more? 7 1/2's or 8's?

    Give us the details.

    FlaLargto, I like a lot of butter on mine.
     
  5. K005

    K005 Member

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    OK, I have two questions, Dr.
    What is a 0.015 barrel taper?
    What chokes have a bell relief?

    Bob K.
     
  6. Johnny

    Johnny Well-Known Member

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    keep it coming Gary
     
  7. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    K005: The Fabarm XLR5 has .015 taper in the Bbl from forcing cone to choke tube entry. The Fabarm Chokes have a bell style relief, as choke tube opens up.

    Winchester Model 12s had Bbl taper from End of forcing cone to end of the choke
    that is why they smoked targets so well, and made good card guns.

    To day I Micd a My CG and a Friends K-80 Pro, both Bbls were .735

    The K-80 had 5 inch long Forcing cone.

    The CG had 7 inch long forcing cone.

    Both Full Chokes were .035 constriction, the CG had longer choke tubes and one inch Paralell straight thru.

    The CG tubes were longer I wish I had measured them.

    The patterns I posted on here about a year ago showed how evenly distributed the shot was and how tight the patterns were.

    There a lot of dis-believers, but I posted the evidence.

    I no longer have those pictures as My computers hard drive was replaced,

    I thought the Bbl dimensions was very interesting.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  8. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Barfin no but those Blaser Patterns were very good, I was referring to the CG patterns. I posted quite a few of them.

    I did find the Bbl configurations of the CG and the K-80 very interesting.

    The Caesar Guerini choke tubes are Maxis Chokes, Conical paralell contour w/ Crowned muzzle, and very close tolerance fitting to Bbls for top perfoemance
    for 27 yard shooting, Incorporates many aftermarket designs for top patterns.

    These were factory forcing cones on both guns, un-touched.

    Both Bbls are marked 2 3/4"inch chambers, specifically designed for trapshooting.

    I just called Beretta and they said all their Bbls are 3 "inch chambers including the Beretta 682 Gold E Models as well as all Automatics. If you have one that is marked 2 3/4"inch chamber let us know.

    Not like some guns that have 3" inch chambers.

    What are the chambers on Browning, Beretta, Trapguns?

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  9. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    Gary, the CG patterns are not easy to find and as I remember were very hard to see and worse to scan. So we will have to make do with your Blaser F3 patterns which you describe as "very good." The whole sad story is at the link above.

    You note correctly that "There a lot of dis-believers" and I count myself as one of them. I never believed any of it for a second.

    Here's your first pattern, made, you told us, with three shots of Federal Handicap 7 1/2's.

    Garys-pattern-scan_zps44323467.jpg

    It is cut off at the top because you made the shot that way, but you can look at the symmetrical area at the lower half (or left or right) and conclude that maybe a couple of dozen pellets have been cut off and since there are 800 or so in the pattern, it won't make much difference.

    First let's address your claim "The patterns I posted on here about a year ago showed how evenly distributed the shot was and how tight the patterns were."

    Yes, the pattern is very tight but it is _not_ evenly distributed. I have to give you a little leeway here since you are just looking at the pattern and so can't tell if it is evenly-distributed or not because it can't be done, but the fact is that the center 10-inch circle is about twice as dense, on a pellets-per-square-inch basis as the outer 10 to 20-inch torus (or "ring.") No, it's not even at all. But no patterns are, so it's not a unique fault of the pattern you posted.

    The fault of the pattern you posted is that on one who has looked at patterns shot from 38 yards has ever seen anything like it. Where are the pellets outside of 20 inches? Where, in fact, are the three or four hundred missing pellets?

    It's way, way, way too tight to be what you say it is. Look at the lower left, "75% shot diameter." That number is the diameter, in inches, which would contain 75% of the shot in the pattern. The figure given, 17 inches, is just impossible at the range you claim, where 26 or 28 inches is a good, tight gun.

    Here is a very good gun of mine, an 870 which is better than almost all of my other guns and just as good as any of the rest.

    Accounting for the fact that I only took one shot, as everyone should unless they are trying to sell a gun, it's a pretty good match, don't you think?

    Neils-pattern-scan_zpsc8bfd2ea.jpg


    Look down at the left corner again, at the 75% diameter. It too is about 17 inches, just like the pattern shot by your Blaser F3.

    But now look at the upper right, test distance, 40 yards. There there is a correction factor called scale, and below that is the simulated distance the patterns was shot at, 26 yards. (The scaling is linear so this is a bit of an underestimate, call it 28 yards.

    So that's the story. You posted patterns you said were shot at 38 yards but they can only be matched by patterns shot by very good guns shooting 10 yards closer. That's why I don't believe them, why I say they are outright fakes. They were shot a lot closer than you have consistently claimed.

    Do you have any other explanation?

    Before you start to explain, remember that no one who sees those Shotgun-insight results will believe that those are real patterns shot at 38 yards. No one will because that's not what such patterns look like and everyone will know that.

    Neil
     
  10. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Neil you are full of Sh*t

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  11. Ken Brandt

    Ken Brandt Active Member

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    Gary;

    Look in the mirror if you want to see who's full of it.

    Ken
     
  12. hmb

    hmb Well-Known Member

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    Gary does the * = o or does the * = i ? HMB
     
  13. 870

    870 Well-Known Member

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    Jerry, problem is he has probably sold those guns that patterned 100% or more at 38 yards, just like he can't find the Oehler data about 3 inch chamber pressures that he specifically referred to, or the ATA rule from the 70's setting a 1200 fps speed limit he so often quotes, and so on.
     
  14. luvtrapguns

    luvtrapguns Well-Known Member

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    I have no dog in this fight, and want to keep it that way, but I shot all through the 70's and I seem to remember 1200 fps as the max allowed. No data to back it up, just a foggy memory. Marc
     
  15. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    I've always liked Neil. Neil comes over to Mason Michigan to shoot in the Great Lakes Grand. It's a long way from Minnesota.

    Whatever happened to all those pre-70's rule books?
     
  16. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    What happened to those pre-1970's rule books is that on the 7th of April, 2009 Tami Daniel at the Trapshooting Hall of Fame looked up and faxed me the texts from the very oldest rulebooks and they all said "3-dram" and none, I repeat, none, ever said anything about 1200 fps.

    It's gone from here now, but the thread it was on was thread 182094.

    I look forward to seeing you at the Great Lakes Grand; it's one of Kyra's favorite shoots!

    Neil
     
  17. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Well then!! 3-Dram it is!! I'll have to find my Woodford and pour us a wee bit...
     
  18. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    The patterns were proof that I posted, I now have another CG w/full choke tube and my gun has a 2 3/4"inch chamber, not a Remington w/3"inch chamber, it is a trap gun not a field gun thats a wannabe trap Bbl.

    Neil so you want everyone to believe your graphs, I showed the 38 yd patterns
    and you say it is impossible.

    Go borrow a CG w/full choke, shoot a few patterns at 38 yards and have a witness to certify it was done from 38 yards.

    You will wet your panties when seeing is believing what a CG can do with a 3 dram 7.5 1 1/8th oz load from a new shell at 38 yards.

    Anyone out there reading this that has a CG that can pattern their CG at 38 yards using a new shell 3 dram 1 1/8th oz patterned at 38 yds using a full choke factory CG tube, Post pictures of your patterns on this site for all to see. The more the better,

    Rick N just patterned his CG and stated a tight pattern, and ordered a Lit Full from CG Yesterday.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
  19. Neil Winston

    Neil Winston Well-Known Member

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    I don't believe you, Gary. It's as simple as that. When I want to make a pattern that is similar to the one you posted I have to go to 28 yards. That's what you did. You faked it.

    What you are asking us to believe is that CG has discovered some sorcery that no one else has. I don't believe it. I've no doubt they probably shoot about as well as other good-shooting guns. It's the hoodoo I reject. The patterns you posted are magic. And there's no such thing.

    Neil
     
  20. Dr.Longshot

    Dr.Longshot Banned Banned

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    Neil and you doubt the pattern thrown with the Blaser too? HAHAHAHA

    The man with little a knowledge and yet knows nothing, and what he does know he mis-construes and calls it hog wash, Oh Yea your Da Man.

    Gary Bryant
    Dr.longshot
     
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