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"Chip"........who has to call it? and whats,

Discussion in 'Shooting Related Threads' started by himark, Apr 11, 2012.

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  1. himark

    himark Well-Known Member

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    So I have went years with out ever seeing a issue with this but recently I seen a squad calling chips excessively. I do NOT need clarification on the rule if its a chip or not but where and what does the rule book say about whom calls it? Can it be just one person on the squad? does it have to be more than one? and if two shooters see it and the scorer still insists it was not...whats the rule?
     
  2. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Scorer...the scorers decision stands...
     
  3. Tech Writer Jeff

    Tech Writer Jeff Active Member

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    The above answers are absolutely correct for ATA tournaments. But, I believe PITA rules allow squad members to overrule the puller's decision. (We East coast boys sometimes forget there's another trapshooting association out West).
     
  4. BigM-Perazzi

    BigM-Perazzi Well-Known Member

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    Ok Jeff, then we should include NSSA, NSCA, Olympic, International, Bunker etc....
     
  5. N. J. BOB

    N. J. BOB Active Member

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    Jeff I in fact belong to PITA but I follow the rules of the ATA on this side of town....
     
  6. Tech Writer Jeff

    Tech Writer Jeff Active Member

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    BigM-Perazzi: Good point ;-)

    Seriously though . . . since this is TRAPshooters.com, I figured discussions about NSSA and NSCA aren't really relevant, but we should include PITA (since it is a trapshooting-only organization like ATA) . . . and the original poster did not provide any clue about which trapshooting organization he belongs to. I'd hate to give him ATA-specific rules when he might be participating only in PITA tournaments.
     
  7. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    So if a chip can clearly be seen falling from the target, but the score keeper calls a "loss" then that is the final say? Even though four other squad members are saying they saw a dead target?

    Bryan
     
  8. Tech Writer Jeff

    Tech Writer Jeff Active Member

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    Bryan: there's the "official rule" and then there's the way things happen in the real world. Does an ATA scorer ever reverse his original decision? Yes. Is he absolutely required to under the rules? No.

    Scorers are human. Everyone knows that. They sometimes don't see a chip. If four other squad members say they saw a chip, then 99.9% of the time (in my experience), the scorer will reverse his decision. It happens at registered events all the time. Scorers sometimes make mistakes and willingly accept the help of the other squad members. The ultimate goal, of course, is to ensure that every shooter gets credit for every bird he breaks and that the event is fair to everyone.

    In the end, however, if the scorer is 100% sure (in his own mind) that there was no chip, he has the final say (as always), and is within the rules for ruling as such. Even if he reverses his original decision, his ultimate decision (whichever way that goes) is final. [Edited for clarity . . . in other words, even if a scorer waffles back and forth, changing his decision 3 or 4 times, his final decision is just that . . . final, according to the rulebook. Whether or not he accepted input from squad members or simply flipped a coin is immaterial . . . no matter how he reaches his final decision, it's the only one that counts. The ATA rulebook does not provide any mechanism for squad members to automatically overrule the scorer by some sort of vote].

    {Your quote: "if a chip can be clearly seen . . ." I guess it all boils down as to whether the scorer was the one who "clearly" saw it or not).
     
  9. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    Interesting, I honestly don't think these scorers (Kids) actually know the rules when it comes to the specifics of their duties.

    RWT, do the kids go through a training class to know what there duty is as a score keeper?


    Robert, you make a valid point. There is no definition of what A Shoot Committee or Governing Body is. so who is to say the squad is not a governing body or a shoot committee?

    Bryan
     
  10. Dickgshot

    Dickgshot Well-Known Member

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    I've argued for videotape replay for trap like they have for baseball, football, basketball,etc. but nobody takes me seriously. It's time we
    brought this sport into the modern age, or else it will never get the
    respect it deserves.
     
  11. wolfram

    wolfram Well-Known Member

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    You are right on the money there Bryan - most times the scorer's don't know the rules that well. We have to remember that the trap game really isn't all that interesting to those not shooting it.

    We try to do a short training session with our scorers prior to our bigger registered shoots and try to cover things like failure to fire, chipped targets Vs smoke and irrate shooters. Some of it sinks in but mostly not. What we do emphasize is that the scorer gets help from one of the guys running the shoot if they are challenged on a call or not sure of the ruling.

    Now a 'how we we do it out west' answer for the OP, we advise the scorer to reverse a lost target call if one person on the squad that is one the line other than the shooter claims to have seen a chip come off a target.

    This may not be the ultimate best solution but when you get right down to it the guys that win are the ones that are smacking targets hard and with great consistency - the ones picking up a target here and there because of a chip call aren't going to put together a winning score in any event.
     
  12. Tech Writer Jeff

    Tech Writer Jeff Active Member

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    Herb Roach:

    Please satisfy my curiosity. Having never shot registered skeet, I am unfamiliar with its rules and customs.

    You said, you've "never heard a lost bird call reversed on the field". Please let me know what would usually transpire under the following scenario:

    1. Skeet shooter shoots at a target. Referee calls it lost.

    2. One or more of the other squad members are sure (in their mind) that the shooter actually broke the bird. What do these other squad members normally do in this case? Keep quiet and say nothing? Or speak up and ask the referee to reconsider?
     
  13. Calkidd

    Calkidd Well-Known Member

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    I have never seen a score not be reversed either. Sometimes, the poor scorer looks over whelmed when a few shooters turn around and tell them it was a dead target.
     
  14. Recoil Sissy

    Recoil Sissy Well-Known Member

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    During shoot offs at major ATA events, there is a scorekeeper and someone designated or appointed by the ATA shoot off committee to act as referee. The scorekeeper keeps score. The referee is the final authority. He or she can overrule a score keeper's call.

    For purposes of this discussion a shoot committee or governing body is what's known as shoot management. A simple way to define it is "whomever is running the show". At smaller shoots, that would be the owner, manager, or managing volunteers of the host club. In the case of a state or provincial shoot, it is typically members of the state or provincial association. At the Grand it's ATA officials.

    ATA rules authorize those folks to make decisions including but not limited to reviewing and if appropriate, overruling a scorer's decision.

    When a squad challenges a scorekeeper's call, my experience is similiar to what's already been expressed. The scorekeeper will normally change his/her call. I've only seen a scorekeeper dig his heels in once. He was an experienced and competent scorekeeper. A squad was calling phony 'pieces' for each other. After going along with several such instances, the scorekeeper caught on to the game and said "no more".

    sissy
     
  15. Bob_K

    Bob_K Well-Known Member

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    In Skeet, the definition is:
    Dead Target
    A target from which, in the sole judgment of the referee, a visible piece is observed before the target hits the ground as a result of having been legally fired upon.
     
  16. ctreay

    ctreay Member

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    No one addressed the "excessive" number of called chips. I have seen squads of shooters who ALWAYS shoot together on league nights (not registered shoots) that will swear they saw a chip if a buddy who is straight drops a bird and the rest of the squad will swear to it.

    ctreay
     
  17. seitz647

    seitz647 Member

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    Skeet refs must complete a course and take a test to qualify to be a ref - I see no such course for traps refs, no certification required - although I did notice that PA does have training ,and wants shooters(free targets) to help train their people - HMMMMM no such program in NY - and I've seen countless lost targets scord dead, and vice versa - I dont know - seems there is a lot of gray area in this rule - and until someone comes up with some kind of a training program and really gives the authority to the scorer - things wont change - J Mroczka
     
  18. JACK

    JACK Well-Known Member Supporting Vendor

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    "King"?
     
  19. Ajax

    Ajax Well-Known Member

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    PITA allows for an overrule of the referee if two or more members on the squad see the chip, not counting the shooter. I've been in both situations. Sometimes no, sometimes yes.

    Ajax
     
  20. Setterman

    Setterman Well-Known Member

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    Skeet birds are only 22.5 yards away. Much easier to see.
     
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